View Poll Results: Do you think socialism could have succeeded if capitalism wasn't standing on the way?

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  • Don't know

    3 2.88%
  • Don't care

    3 2.88%
  • Absolutely

    10 9.62%
  • I think it could

    16 15.38%
  • I think it couldn't

    17 16.35%
  • No way

    55 52.88%
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Thread: Socialism could have succeeded?

  1. #121
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    The public isn't limited to just the teachers, if it were, the teacher unions would be obsolete. If only the teachers owned the institution and not the entire community, there would be no need for the unions. However, as the state owns the institutions, the unions act as a collective defense on behalf of the workers. If there were no unions, it wouldn't be democratic, the state would simply call the shots regardless of the will of the teachers.
    The state still calls the shots, regardless of the teachers union.
    They have the power to void the contract with the union, if they wish.

    It's not really an example of socialism, otherwise the need to unionize wouldn't exist.
    The unions and their membership are pitted against the public quite often.

    That doesn't even get into the fact that the schools are compulsory, which would defy the notion of free will in socialism.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #122
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post

    It's not really an example of socialism, otherwise the need to unionize wouldn't exist.
    The unions and their membership are pitted against the public quite often.
    It's not an example of socialism, it's an example of public ownership.

    Either way, unions are an important aspect to libertarian socialism. "Syndicalism" is a French word for "trade unionism". They would be used to negotiate and plan the larger economy.

    That doesn't even get into the fact that the schools are compulsory, which would defy the notion of free will in socialism.
    What?
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  3. #123
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    It's not an example of socialism, it's an example of public ownership.

    Either way, unions are an important aspect to libertarian socialism. "Syndicalism" is a French word for "trade unionism". They would be used to negotiate and plan the larger economy.
    If something is publicly owned, it shouldn't require a union, especially if the democratic process is actually superior at managing things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    What?
    Libertarian socialism is supposed to emphasize mutual aid and voluntary cooperation.
    If you are required by law, to attend a school, it is no longer voluntary.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #124
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    sangha's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Yea I know they evolve.
    What sangha erroneously refers to as socialism, is actually economic fascism.
    That's the evolution.
    No, your mistake is thinking that because an org buys stuff from a private company, it's not socialism

    The military is a socialist organization even though it buys stuff from private companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #125
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    To be fair, the public school system is publicly owned. So the teachers do technically own the public institutions as they are a part of the community too. It's not a self managed, democratically operated system, but it is publicly owned.

    They're unionized to protect themselves from the authority of the state and the management of the institution. The management doesn't own the school. Granted that it isn't a charter school, the state owns the school.
    Even charter schools are owned by the govt. They are sometimes run by a private entity, but they are owned by the state
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #126
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    The public isn't limited to just the teachers, if it were, the teacher unions would be obsolete. If only the teachers owned the institution and not the entire community, there would be no need for the unions. However, as the state owns the institutions, the unions act as a collective defense on behalf of the workers. If there were no unions, it wouldn't be democratic, the state would simply call the shots regardless of the will of the teachers.
    GI doesn't seem to understand the difference between "teachers" and "the public"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #127
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The state still calls the shots, regardless of the teachers union.
    They have the power to void the contract with the union, if they wish.

    It's not really an example of socialism, otherwise the need to unionize wouldn't exist.
    The unions and their membership are pitted against the public quite often.

    That doesn't even get into the fact that the schools are compulsory, which would defy the notion of free will in socialism.
    Socialism allows unions. You can't seem to distinguish between "the public, at large" and "employees".
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #128
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    That doesn't even get into the fact that the schools are compulsory, which would defy the notion of free will in socialism.

    What?

    LOL!

    Get used to the nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #129
    Unnecessary Middleman Bardo's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If something is publicly owned, it shouldn't require a union, especially if the democratic process is actually superior at managing things.
    We're getting away from the current situation and into hypothetical waters.

    If we lived in a libertarian-socialist society, the faculty of a single institution would make up a mini-union within that institution. A democratic collective responsible for appointing management and making decisions. That single institution would represent the larger union which would represent that industry on a larger scale. The union within a capitalist economy is a means of defense, a union within a libertarian-socialist economy would be a means of cooperation and economic democracy.

    Libertarian socialism is supposed to emphasize mutual aid and voluntary cooperation.
    If you are required by law, to attend a school, it is no longer voluntary.
    You're also not an adult in the years that you are required to attend school. Would schooling not be compulsory in a libertarian-capitalist society? I don't see how it could be, seeing that education would be privatized, therefore you would be required by law to purchase a product. I don't see the merit in making education non-compulsory for children.
    "It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this." Bertrand Russell

  10. #130
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    Re: Socialism could have succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If something is publicly owned, it shouldn't require a union, especially if the democratic process is actually superior at managing things.
    Once again, you are failing to distinguish between the public and the employees. Unions represent the workers, not the public
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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