• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

Did evolution leave all races with equal mental and physical competency?


  • Total voters
    43
Status
Not open for further replies.
It's good that you're diagnosing yourself as having a reading comprehension disorder for you kindly save us all the trouble of having broach that subject with you. Now that you've broken the ice and shown that you're comfortable with discussing your disability, let me point to another mistake you've made in the quoted post:

You realize that at best the paper you present is controversial, at worst it is seen as faulty?​


You made the above statement. You didn't indicate that you were conveying other people's opinions. So it seems that in addition to your reading comprehension problems you also have a short-term memory problem which inhibits your ability to recall what you wrote only minutes ago.

To the substance of your evidence-free assertion, the APA published journal gave equal access to the critics, so if there was any fault with the paper then that fault would have been fully addressed by the critics, preeminent scholars in the field.

Your tactic is widely recognized as "poisoning the well" - you lay a turd into the thread by declaring that a paper is controversial and possibly faulty and just leave that turd there to stink up the debate. You don't make an argument as to why YOU, or OTHERS, believe the paper is controversial and WHY some think it MAY be faulty. There would be value in discussing WHY that might be the case but simply dropping a turd like you did serves no purpose other than to poison the debate.



YOU say the paper is controversial. Why should I be bound by your evidence-free assertion? The paper was peer-reviewed and the journal brought together top scholars in the field, people with very impressive publication records. These people all know there fields very well. There is no controversy here.

So all the experts in the field who disagree with the methodology and conclusions, they do not make the paper controversial at best? You instead try and make it about me? That is hilarious.
 
If you're going to say we're all the same race then racism can't exist because racism demands that there's a race that oppresses/insults/etc another race.

Well, Social Darwinism existed as a social concept. People genuinely believed that humanity could be categorized based on species and then arranged in a hierarchy. That's basically where racism comes from. First you must assume there are races, then you go looking for proof of varying qualities.

Racism is perceptual, it's not genetic determinism. If that were true, then everyone would be "racist" because we would be inherently separate. But we're not, so.

I accept your non-scientific opinion on the matter nonetheless.
 
Evolution didn't leave PEOPLE mentally and physically equal.

Differences in intellect between INDIVIDUALS exceed "racial" differences.

The "smartest" can easily dominate the less so.

The brightest white person has a bigger advantage over the average white person than the average white person has over the average (insert ethnicity here) person.

Genetic advantages between individuals are, imho, explain different outcomes better than any other metric.

Not just intellect.

Looks

Charisma

Timbre of voice

Etc etc.

The strongest used to rule the less so.

Now its a different set of advantages, but the result of a roll of the dice, nonetheless.
 
I said "insignificant" not "identical." That distinction is crucial. The Human Genome Project showed 99.9% similarity.

The distinction that you're making is a meaningless one. Let me explain.

Pulled randomly from today's news:


The top Republican in Congress on Thursday dismissed President Barack Obama's jobs-creation package as a "poor substitute" for policies that would boost the economy and ruled out tax increases as a way to close the country's budget gap.​


Compare that news quote to the following statement:


Square matrices without full rank have at least one zero eigenvalue​


Most of us can immediately recognize that those two sentences have no relation to each other. Your argument though is that there is no difference because both sentences use common letters of the alphabet. The second sentence is different because it uses the letter Q in a word and the first sentence doesn't.

The fact that the HGP found 99.9% genetic similarity across the human species is a meaningless fact. Let me demonstrate with another example.

Using the same methodology as that used in the HGP I could declare that a human male has more in common with a male chimpanzee than he does with a human female, because females don't possess the Y chromosome and the male human and male chimpanzee do and that similarity swamps the difference between species, where humans and chimpanzees are 98% similar.

Going back to my text based example, the meaning of the two samples of text is found in the correlation of letters to each other, that is words have meaning and the same principle is in play with how race is detailed - the meaning of race is found within the correlational structure of the genome. This is how computer programs can very accurately categorize people into racial groups. If we were all 99.9% the same then the program wouldn't be able to bring about a sort.

The differences among humans, however one wants to group them, are insignificant.

You keep saying that the differences are insignificant but you don't define what you mean by the term. Are the differences between the two text examples I used also insignificant? The information that I extract from both samples of text conveys two very significantly different meanings despite the fact that both samples have highly similar use of letters.

Furthermore, you completely misunderstood the analogy that references races (or any other grouping of humans) and species. Intra-species differences are very small compared to inter-species ones.

Who says? Not Sewall Wright:


By contrast, Sewall Wright, who can hardly be taken for a dilettante in questions of population genetics, has stated emphatically that if differences of this magnitude were observed in any other species, the groups they distinguish would be called subspecies.

One can extend Wright’s argument even further. The more than 200 species of haplochromine fishes in Lake Victoria differ from each other much less than the human races in their neutral genes, although they are presumably distinguished by genes that control differences in their external appearances. The same can be said about at least some of the currently recognized species of Darwin’s finches and about other examples of recent adaptive radiations. In all these cases, reproductively isolated groups are impossible to tell apart by the methods used to measure differences between human races. Obviously, human races are not reproductively isolated (interracial marriages are common and the progenies of such marriages are fully fertile) but the external differences between them are comparable to those between the cichlid fishes and Darwin’s finches. Under these circumstances, to claim that the genetic differences between the human races are trivial is more a political statement than a scientific argument. Trivial by what criterion? How much difference would Lewontin and those who side with him consider nontrivial?​


I said "credible" studies.

I've seen this fallacy used numerous times. I'm tired of moved goalposts as a standard as well as the tactic of idiosyncratic definitions of credible. Next you'll be telling me that you only consider studies published in journals which use red ink to be credible and that any study published in a journal that uses black ink doesn't qualify by your standards as being credible.
 
The distinction that you're making is a meaningless one. Let me explain.

Pulled randomly from today's news:

The top Republican in Congress on Thursday dismissed President Barack Obama's jobs-creation package as a "poor substitute" for policies that would boost the economy and ruled out tax increases as a way to close the country's budget gap.​


Compare that news quote to the following statement:

Square matrices without full rank have at least one zero eigenvalue​


Most of us can immediately recognize that those two sentences have no relation to each other. Your argument though is that there is no difference because both sentences use common letters of the alphabet. The second sentence is different because it uses the letter Q in a word and the first sentence doesn't.

The fact that the HGP found 99.9% genetic similarity across the human species is a meaningless fact. Let me demonstrate with another example.

Using the same methodology as that used in the HGP I could declare that a human male has more in common with a male chimpanzee than he does with a human female, because females don't possess the Y chromosome and the male human and male chimpanzee do and that similarity swamps the difference between species, where humans and chimpanzees are 98% similar.

Going back to my text based example, the meaning of the two samples of text is found in the correlation of letters to each other, that is words have meaning and the same principle is in play with how race is detailed - the meaning of race is found within the correlational structure of the genome. This is how computer programs can very accurately categorize people into racial groups. If we were all 99.9% the same then the program wouldn't be able to bring about a sort.



You keep saying that the differences are insignificant but you don't define what you mean by the term. Are the differences between the two text examples I used also insignificant? The information that I extract from both samples of text conveys two very significantly different meanings despite the fact that both samples have highly similar use of letters.



Who says? Not Sewall Wright:

By contrast, Sewall Wright, who can hardly be taken for a dilettante in questions of population genetics, has stated emphatically that if differences of this magnitude were observed in any other species, the groups they distinguish would be called subspecies.

One can extend Wright’s argument even further. The more than 200 species of haplochromine fishes in Lake Victoria differ from each other much less than the human races in their neutral genes, although they are presumably distinguished by genes that control differences in their external appearances. The same can be said about at least some of the currently recognized species of Darwin’s finches and about other examples of recent adaptive radiations. In all these cases, reproductively isolated groups are impossible to tell apart by the methods used to measure differences between human races. Obviously, human races are not reproductively isolated (interracial marriages are common and the progenies of such marriages are fully fertile) but the external differences between them are comparable to those between the cichlid fishes and Darwin’s finches. Under these circumstances, to claim that the genetic differences between the human races are trivial is more a political statement than a scientific argument. Trivial by what criterion? How much difference would Lewontin and those who side with him consider nontrivial?​




I've seen this fallacy used numerous times. I'm tired of moved goalposts as a standard as well as the tactic of idiosyncratic definitions of credible. Next you'll be telling me that you only consider studies published in journals which use red ink to be credible and that any study published in a journal that uses black ink doesn't qualify by your standards as being credible.

All that is nice, but it does nothing to demonstrate that all intra-species genetic variance is entirely due to evolution, which would be necessary for your evolution hypothesis to be accurate.
 
Last edited:
Evolution didn't leave PEOPLE mentally and physically equal.

Differences in intellect between INDIVIDUALS exceed "racial" differences.

The "smartest" can easily dominate the less so.

The brightest white person has a bigger advantage over the average white person than the average white person has over the average (insert ethnicity here) person.

Genetic advantages between individuals are, imho, explain different outcomes better than any other metric.

Not just intellect.

Looks

Charisma

Timbre of voice

Etc etc.

The strongest used to rule the less so.

Now its a different set of advantages, but the result of a roll of the dice, nonetheless.

Great point.

selleck.JPG

vs.

ugly guy.JPG
 
Funny but irrelevant point. As I said before, the question is not about specific individuals.
 
All that is nice. . .

Thank you for that.

. . . , but it does nothing to demonstrate that all intra-species genetic variance is entirely due to evolution, which would be necessary for your evolution hypothesis to be accurate.

HUH?

"Evolution" is a process with pretty big reach. Sexual selection, drift, mutation, are distinct processes but they all play a part in "evolution."
 
Thank you for that.



HUH?

"Evolution" is a process with pretty big reach. Sexual selection, drift, mutation, are distinct processes but they all play a part in "evolution."

The fact that they all play a part in evolution does not mean that evolution plays a part in all intra-species genetic variance.
 
Funny but irrelevant point. As I said before, the question is not about specific individuals.

Not sure your point.

"Racial" differences are almost exclusively environmental (climate, food sources, not "nurture"), equipping those who evolve their to thrive in said environme t.

So no, all "races" aren't equally "equipped", but will tend to be more successful when in their evolutionary environment.

Intellect aside, as arguably the most potent genetic difference between individuals and largely due to the fact this is the wellspring of our ability to dominate the natural world. Largely negating evolutionary adaptations to a given environment.

Doesn't matter how heat/sun adapted you are if I have air conditioning for instance.
 
The fact that they all play a part in evolution does not mean that evolution plays a part in all intra-species genetic variance.

I'm extremely tired today and not at my sharpest. I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. What factors other than evolution do you imagine are playing a part in creating intra-species genetic variance. Give me an example and that should, I hope, be enough of a clue for me to understand what you're trying to argue.
 
Not sure your point.

"Racial" differences are almost exclusively environmental (climate, food sources, not "nurture"), equipping those who evolve their to thrive in said environme t.

I disagree. That is, I disagree that it's "almost exclusively".

So no, all "races" aren't equally "equipped", but will tend to be more successful when in their evolutionary environment.

Intellect aside, as arguably the most potent genetic difference between individuals and largely due to the fact this is the wellspring of our ability to dominate the natural world. Largely negating evolutionary adaptations to a given environment.

Doesn't matter how heat/sun adapted you are if I have air conditioning for instance.

Indeed. It shows why climate is simply a factor that can be overcome.
 
Incredibly relevant article: BBC News - Is it wrong to note 100m winners are always black?

"This evidence demonstrates how absurd it is to engage in racial generalisations - how crazy it is to witness a tiny group of black people winning at, say, the 10,000m and to infer that all people who share the same skin colour share an aptitude for 10,000m running."

As for intelligence - the fact alone that you can take an IQ test, then train for it, take it again and get a better result shows that IQ is largely affected by environment. Bone structure, on the other hand, is largely genetic. Though I'm not a fan of the term - it's apples and oranges.
 
Last edited:
So all the experts in the field who disagree with the methodology and conclusions, they do not make the paper controversial at best? You instead try and make it about me? That is hilarious.

It is about you because you're making stuff up. You saying that there are "experts in the field who disagree with the methodology and conclusions" is unsupported. I'd love to read these idiots who disagree with the methodology of a SURVEY PAPER which has no methodology - that would be a hoot to read.
 
It is about you because you're making stuff up. You saying that there are "experts in the field who disagree with the methodology and conclusions" is unsupported. I'd love to read these idiots who disagree with the methodology of a SURVEY PAPER which has no methodology - that would be a hoot to read.

You said it yourself, there was a whole issue dedicated to people on both sides of the issue. But I am wrong, even though you couldn't even argue against half of what I said. This is typical of you, you find some little nitpick, and present that as if it made the whole thing not true. If you are going to keep claiming the paper is not controversial, I will happily supply many links. That is what we call not making things up. The difference between what you are doing, and what I am doing, is I am actually commenting on the substance of your posts, while you go to great lengths to avoid commenting on the substance of any one you disagree with's post.
 
Discussion in another thread gave rise to this poll.

Simply, do you think evolution, with it's supposed changing of humans, left mental and physical competence equal among all races? I ask because I haven't been given much if any empirical proof or valuable evidence for either side. I, for one, am highly suspicious of the notion that evolution left all races equally intelligent. So I'm left to question each side.

Do the Chinese have an overall higher intelligence than, say, Aboriginees of Australia? Looking at history, I can see that certain races advanced far faster than other races. All humans can almost be treated like a bacteria, with different strains of the same virus, what with the way we've spread.

Do you think evolution, with it's "magical" ability to cause people to vary from physical features and skin color, change everthing save mental competence? If mental competence wasn't touched in the slightest so that all races are equally intelligent, do you think physical prowess was also untouched in the slightest? What other things do you think political correctn---ehm, evolution, decide to leave equal?

Please support your claims with evidence otherwise this'll just be a repeat of the other thread.

EDIT: "Ye" is "yes". Confound you, Computer.
Why do you limit the answers to Yes or No?
 
I'm extremely tired today and not at my sharpest. I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. What factors other than evolution do you imagine are playing a part in creating intra-species genetic variance. Give me an example and that should, I hope, be enough of a clue for me to understand what you're trying to argue.

You answered the question yourself: Sexual selection, drift, mutation. Any one of those, as well as other explanations, cause intra-species genetic variance. While the all play a role in evolution, they are not evolution.

See, in order for evolution to occur, genetic variance must be present in the species already. A species without intra-species genetic variance would be a species that could not evolve.

Your arguments claim that a specific intra-species variation is caused by evolution, but the only evidence you offer for that is the existence of that intra-species variation. You provide no evidence whatsoever that leads to the conclusion of an evolutionary cause for that variation.
 
You said it yourself, there was a whole issue dedicated to people on both sides of the issue.

Exactly. This paper was not controversial nor was it faulty. The critics who published in the same issue raised concerns and then the authors responded to the concerns. It shouldn't have to be pointed out put perhaps it would help because you don't seem to grasp that just because a concern is raised that doesn't mean that the concern is fairly raising a point rather than misinterpreting a point, it doesn't mean that the concern is correct, it doesn't mean that the concern represents a stronger point of view, etc. A concern that is raised is not the equivalent of a falsification.

Thirty years ago, before the rise of genomics, the environment only extremists ruled the day and the hereditarians were being attacked all the time. Now the tables are turned and the nurture side is being pummeled because the hereditarians are drawing on multiple reinforcing points from a variety of fields. The concerns that the critics raised were answered by the proponents.

But I am wrong, even though you couldn't even argue against half of what I said. This is typical of you, you find some little nitpick, and present that as if it made the whole thing not true.

Learn to keep your Pavlovian attack response in check - if you want to debate me then stop and think about what you've written before you hit the "Submit Reply" button. I don't care how sloppy you are with your thinking when you respond to other people but when you direct attacks at me those punches better hit me. That's when I'll take you seriously. At the very least be more precise in your language. Your habit of sloppy thinking makes it difficult to take you seriously.
 
You answered the question yourself: Sexual selection, drift, mutation. Any one of those, as well as other explanations, cause intra-species genetic variance. While the all play a role in evolution, they are not evolution.

See, in order for evolution to occur, genetic variance must be present in the species already. A species without intra-species genetic variance would be a species that could not evolve.

Your arguments claim that a specific intra-species variation is caused by evolution, but the only evidence you offer for that is the existence of that intra-species variation. You provide no evidence whatsoever that leads to the conclusion of an evolutionary cause for that variation.

Let's make a deal - I won't tutor you in physics and you don't tutor me on population genetics. OK?
 
I am going to take your example here.

I assume you chose the Chinese because they are a developing civilization and appear to be quite intelligent, and I also assume you chose the Aboriginees of Australia because they appear to do nothing but play with rocks or something like that (no heavy thinking).

If you take a chinese newborn and take him to live with the Aboriginees and you take a baby from Austrailia and raise him in China, what will the outcome be?

I think intelligence is fostered and groomed from day one, and if you are in a society like China, where you need a strong brain to survive, the child will come out smarter and able to solve problems.

If all you teach the child to do is gather food and fight, I don't think he will do very well with a spelling test.

A little history

China is not a developing civilization, its culture and civilization goes back far beyond that of any existing European civilization. The Germanic tribes were still nomadic tribes for a good thousand years when China had developed a writen language and had formed agricultural communities. The Chinese civilization would at the time of the Roman civilization would easily compare in size, scope and development. Unlike the Roman civilization the Chinese one from then still has a large influence on the Chinese civilization today. The begining of the Chinese civilization if I recall correctly would have been around the 800 BC period, before any real development in Europe outside of the Hellenic region


Side note and the likely reason for your misconception


China had the largest economy in the world and was probably the largest manufacturer the world of goods up untill sometime in the 1800s. China which tends to go through periods of self imposed isolation did not partake in the industrial revolution which put it behind the 8 ball when it comes to world power in the 1800-1900s for the most part. Now that China is in a more open phase it is taking the usefull ideas from the nonchinese world and is in the process of regaining its traditional place as one of the worlds powers. The Opium Wars was the UK pushing China to allow Opium imports as a means to balance the trade between the British Empire and China
 
Last edited:
Exactly. This paper was not controversial nor was it faulty. The critics who published in the same issue raised concerns and then the authors responded to the concerns. It shouldn't have to be pointed out put perhaps it would help because you don't seem to grasp that just because a concern is raised that doesn't mean that the concern is fairly raising a point rather than misinterpreting a point, it doesn't mean that the concern is correct, it doesn't mean that the concern represents a stronger point of view, etc. A concern that is raised is not the equivalent of a falsification.

Thirty years ago, before the rise of genomics, the environment only extremists ruled the day and the hereditarians were being attacked all the time. Now the tables are turned and the nurture side is being pummeled because the hereditarians are drawing on multiple reinforcing points from a variety of fields. The concerns that the critics raised were answered by the proponents.



Learn to keep your Pavlovian attack response in check - if you want to debate me then stop and think about what you've written before you hit the "Submit Reply" button. I don't care how sloppy you are with your thinking when you respond to other people but when you direct attacks at me those punches better hit me. That's when I'll take you seriously. At the very least be more precise in your language. Your habit of sloppy thinking makes it difficult to take you seriously.

So is it controversial. Well, first stop is usually Wiki, which agrees that it is controversial:

Race and intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The review article "Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability" by Rushton and Jensen was published in 2005.[SUP][19][/SUP] The article was followed by a series of responses, some in support, some critical.[SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][21][/SUP] Richard Nisbett, another psychologist who had also commented at the time, later included an amplified version of his critique as part of the book Intelligence and How to Get It: Why Schools and Cultures Count (2009).[SUP][22][/SUP] Rushton and Jensen in 2010 made a point-for-point reply to this and again summarized the hereditarian position.[SUP][23][/SUP]

Hey look, some people find it wrong. Responding to something does not make you right and them wrong, or else I have just proven you wrong simply by responding. This is what we call elementary logic, which seems to be beyond you. Maybe you did not realize this, but just saying you are right does not make it so, and yet because the authors said they are right, you assume that means they are.

Then of course we have http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=2005-03637-002

Oh look, it turns out people actually do disagree with your source, people with knowledge in the field. I can happily dig up more, but despite your claims, the paper is in fact controversial, with many disagreeing with it. In fact, despite all your ad homs and attempts to hide the fact, you have only shown that in fact I am right, it is controversial. If you would take time to stop and think before you hit the submit reply button, you might not make these elementary mistakes(see, I can make mindless ad homs just like you too).
 
Let's make a deal - I won't tutor you in physics and you don't tutor me on population genetics. OK?

Well, you showed him...

Actually, you showed him that you could not counter his post and had to resort to, once again, misdirection in an attempt to draw attention away from it. By the way, Tucker in fact does know more on the topic than you do, as we have seen numberous times. Hell, I know more on the topic than you, and I just casually read things.
 
It is about you because you're making stuff up. You saying that there are "experts in the field who disagree with the methodology and conclusions" is unsupported. I'd love to read these idiots who disagree with the methodology of a SURVEY PAPER which has no methodology - that would be a hoot to read.

It's idiotic to believe that a "survey paper" has no "methodology". The choice to use a survey is itself a methodology. In constructing and interpreting the survey, there must be a methodology or the paper is not scientific.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom