View Poll Results: Did evolution leave all races with equal mental and physical competency?

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Thread: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

  1. #161
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Don't play games. Initially I didn't want to get involved in a pissing contest with you and I was willing to let your error slide, but you couldn't leave well enough alone and take the graceful option I presented and you had to turn it back on me. You bluffed, now I'm calling your bluff. Show your ****ing cards. If you want to posture like you know enough about what is going on, then explain yourself.



    It's backwards? Now your argument is that evolution is caused by population level genetic variance? I'd really LUV to hear an explanation for how this works. The EFFECTS are now driving the CAUSE.



    You're just playing meaningless word games because you've boxed yourself into a corner. The three principal drivers of evolution are mutation, selection and drift/draft. The principle requirements underlying population level genetic variance are reduced gene flow between populations on a cline, founder effects, and degrees of inbreeding. For two populations to increase the degree of genetic variation between them the actual processes all fall under the broad term of evolution. The outcomes that see today are the result of reproductively isolated groups expanding in number over time from their initial founding group and so carrying forward in time that initial genetic profile and to varying levels inbreeding amongst themselves to an extent that overwhelms the effects of introgression from outside populations and all the while mutations arise, they are selected or not and drift/draft occurs. If you take these processes to extremes you are well on the road to speciation.

    Religious creationists get quite in a tizzy about speciation and we all recognize that speciation is the result of evolution. Speciation cannot develop if there is enough gene flow between populations. Evolution is a pretty big term and it can be viewed on multiple levels. That is the basis of your mistake, or that's what I'm assuming from reading between the lines - you have some level of layman's knowledge of what you think evolution is and you're leveraging that limited understanding to put yourself into some self-proclaimed level of authority. I do my best to engage in conversations in the colloquial when these issues come up but when you write "the driving factors of evolution are not themselves evolution" you leave me no option but to get more technical. The facets of evolution which play out at the population level do not register at the gene level - founder effects and introgression and inbreeding don't matter to the question of whether a mutation propagates or dies out. There are whole other factors in play, like adaptive traits and adaptation, kin selection, etc which occor at higher levels of analysis and which I'm skipping here but they also fall under the umbrella of evolution.



    Because I hate being the pedant who is correcting everyone on minor definitional points - I was giving you some slack so that we could progress beyond nitpicking and get to the point that you wanted to make but you force me to a pendentic position by this game of yours, so yes, evolution is the process which drives population level genetic variation. Prove me wrong. Explain to us what factors apart from "evolution" are driving population level genetic variance.
    Just a couple points. One, the irony of saying "you have some level of layman's knowledge of what you think evolution is and you're leveraging that limited understanding to put yourself into some self-proclaimed level of authority" is overwhelming.

    Two, the whole "prove my unproven assertion wrong" thing is incredibly lame. Here is a thought, offer actual evidence you are right. Bonus hint: your post contains two conflicting arguments, see if you can figure out what they are.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  2. #162
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Modern humans have been around about 200,000 years or so. We started migrating out of Africa around 60,000 years ago. This means that racial divergence happened over the course of the last 2000 generations. From an evolutionary perspective, 2000 generations are really not that many. However, when you consider that humans have colonized virtually every ecosystem on the face of the earth other than the polar icecaps, several significant physical adaptions have occurred in the last 60,000 years based upon where given populations resided. You also have to take into account that until the last hundred years or so, the vast majority of humans never traveled more than a hundred miles or so from their home over the course of their entire life and thus populations were very isolated genetically. This was especially true since most non-equatorial groups transitioned from hunter gatherer societies to farming societies around 10,000 years ago. That said, we are still evolved to be hunter gatherers as the ultimate endurance athletes of the animal kingdom.

    So I don't know. I suppose there could be an evolutionary difference between races in terms of mental capacity, but for a such a difference to exist, we would have to start with identifying the environmental factors that would have resulted in such an adaption. The physical differences between races can easily be attributed to environmental factors (the European environment / ecosystem is far different than that of sub-saharan Africa). However, the mental capacity needed to be a primitive farmer is not as much as the mental capacity needed to be a hunter gatherer in most environments. The hunter gatherer requires a near biologist understanding of their environment (especially in tropical environments). It is much harder to survive in a primitive society in most tropical environments than it is in most temperate environments.
    Last edited by SouthernDemocrat; 09-16-11 at 07:24 PM.
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  3. #163
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Btw, alot of very smart high IQ people go broke when economic conditions change. Nice job of not addressing the overall point, but then again, I didn't expect you would.
    I addressed your silly post which basically said something like 'Because I know a few smart black guys, then they can't be less smart as a group than whites'.. Even though you didn't show the IQ's of farmers you CLAIMED had lower ones.
    and Also.... confused/Conflated IQ and Education.
    Like I said- it's silly/illogical debate by anecdote and containing nothing on whether those/or any farmers in fact had lower IQs.

    I then addressed nonpareill with alot of meat on the bone [knowing I would more fully] answer many here-- unlike your utterly illogical And empty post.
    Last edited by mbig; 09-16-11 at 07:28 PM.
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  4. #164
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    I cannot believe people are still trying the supremacist angle. We are all the same species even if all but black populations are found to have genetic links to Neanderthals. Sure East Asians score the best in IQ tests but that is only because learning and achieving in these areas is given a top priority. What leads to ability more than anything else is practice. Why do you think people talk about 'stretching' their minds. Learning increases intelligence. IQ tests test learned skills.

    There is always going to be some people trying to prove that some human beings, there own, are smarter than others. The rise of the right wing may mean this is on the increase for the time being. Thankfully despite all their heavy tries, they cannot prove that there is any significant inherent or genetic variation between blacks and whites because there is not.

    When the New Republic devoted almost an entire issue (10/31/94) to a debate with the authors of The Bell Curve, editor Andrew Sullivan justified the decision by writing, "The notion that there might be resilient ethnic differences in intelligence is not, we believe, an inherently racist belief."

    In fact, the idea that some races are inherently inferior to others is the definition of racism. What the New Republic was saying--along with other media outlets that prominently and respectfully considered the thesis of Charles Murray and the late Richard Herrnstein's book--is that racism is a respectable intellectual position, and has a legitimate place in the national debate on race.

    -snip-

    Nearly all the research that Murray and Herrnstein relied on for their central claims about race and IQ was funded by the Pioneer Fund, described by the London Sunday Telegraph (3/12/89) as a "neo-Nazi organization closely integrated with the far right in American politics." The fund's mission is to promote eugenics, a philosophy that maintains that "genetically unfit" individuals or races are a threat to society.
    Racism Resurgent

    as for the Minnosat Twins study that was heavily flawed are all these grandiose claims to supremacy


    The Bell Curve is a top-level work of science

    The Science behind the bell curve has been denounced by both the American Psychological Association and the Human Genome Project but dream on, it is all you have.
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  5. #165
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    II addressed your silly post which basically said something like 'Because I know a few smart black guys, then they can't be less smart as a group than whites'.. Even though you didn't show the IQ's of farmers you CLAIMED had lower ones..
    and Also.... confused/Conflated IQ and Education.
    Like I said- it's silly/illogical debate by anecdote and containing nothing on whether those/or any farmers in fact had lower IQs.

    I then addressed nonpareill with alot of meat on the bone answering many here-- unlike your utterly illogical And empty post.
    So the problem is my point went over your head.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  6. #166
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I cannot believe people are still trying the supremacist angle. ....
    But I Can believe (and Fully Expected) the PC are spinning "acknowledging Differences" (we all know exist), and SPINNING it into the Accusatory "the Supremacist angle."

    As when I brought it up previously:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/scienc...-genetics.html

    "...We will also identify the many genes that create physical and mental differences across populations, and we will be able to estimate when those genes arose. Some of those differences probably occurred very recently, within recorded history. Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending argued in “The 10,000 Year Explosion” that some human groups experienced a vastly accelerated rate of evolutionary change within the past few thousand years, benefiting from the new genetic diversity created within far larger populations, and in response to the new survival, social and reproductive challenges of agriculture, cities, divisions of labour and social classes. Others did not experience these changes until the past few hundred years when they were subject to contact, colonisation and, all too often, extermination.

    If the shift from GWAS to sequencing studies finds evidence of such Politically Awkward and Morally Perplexing facts, we can Expect the usual range of Ideological reactions, including Nationalistic Retro-racism from Conservatives and Outraged Denial from Blank-slate Liberals.
    The few who really understand the genetics will gain a more enlightened, live-and-let-live recognition of the biodiversity within our extraordinary species—including a clearer view of likely comparative advantages between the world’s different economies....
    Last edited by mbig; 09-16-11 at 07:56 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  7. #167
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Modern humans have been around about 200,000 years or so. We started migrating out of Africa around 60,000 years ago. This means that racial divergence happened over the course of the last 2000 generations. From an evolutionary perspective, 2000 generations are really not that many.
    How do you define many? In the span of about 2,000-6,000 years Northern European whites went from 0% to 80%-98% levels of lactose tolerance while Asians and Native Americans are about 90%-95% lactose intolerant and Africans are between 60%-80% lactose intolerant.


    The frequencies of lactose maldigestion at ages 2–3 y, 6 y, and 9–10 y, respectively, are 0%, 0%, and 6% in white Americans; 18%, 30%, and 47% in Americans of Mexican descent; 25%, 45%, and 60% in black South Africans; ≈30%, 80%, and 85% in Chinese and Japanese; and 30–55%, 90%, and >90% in Mestizos of Peru.

  8. #168
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Funny, I remember reading that IQ tests were discounted as an accurate measure of intelligence a decade ago because it ended up testing white culture and specific knowledge, rather than problem solving, learning capability, or knowledge retention.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  9. #169
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    How do you define many? In the span of about 2,000-6,000 years Northern European whites went from 0% to 80%-98% levels of lactose tolerance while Asians and Native Americans are about 90%-95% lactose intolerant and Africans are between 60%-80% lactose intolerant.


    The frequencies of lactose maldigestion at ages 2–3 y, 6 y, and 9–10 y, respectively, are 0%, 0%, and 6% in white Americans; 18%, 30%, and 47% in Americans of Mexican descent; 25%, 45%, and 60% in black South Africans; ≈30%, 80%, and 85% in Chinese and Japanese; and 30–55%, 90%, and >90% in Mestizos of Peru.
    The defining factor in that is how many cows live there, not skin color.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  10. #170
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    When I was young I was homeschooled until graduation. I was always afraid of being influenced by behavior of ghetto blacks. Knowledge and loneliness besides my family were the norm. Basketball by myself near the library I loved was my own peaceful haven; solace from my worries. You will think this insane, but the character Morpheous from The Matrix greatly shaped my life... he seemed closest to my impression of my ideal self. Books were supportive friends to me; ADD accentuated my intellect yet factored into my loneliness. Knowledge and my intense curiosity fueled my movements. My point is that there are intelligent blacks, but that, to me, there are many more ignorant ones. Perhaps we are equal in intelligence and that instead influence is everything in our lives. Currently, with my advancement, there are far too many questions whose answers cannot be truly discerned.

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