View Poll Results: Did evolution leave all races with equal mental and physical competency?

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  • Ye

    27 38.57%
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    43 61.43%
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Thread: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

  1. #141
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    This is likely because most researchers don't want to touch the subject with a 50 foot poll either (it'd probably be hard to get funding for such projects).
    You have no idea brother! The anti-science Left can make life miserable for researchers. From the book "Destructive Trends in Mental Health"






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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Based upon the poll results I have to say that I'm amazed that so many believe that certain races are inferior to others.

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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Discussion in another thread gave rise to this poll.

    Simply, do you think evolution, with it's supposed changing of humans, left mental and physical competence equal among all races? I ask because I haven't been given much if any empirical proof or valuable evidence for either side. I, for one, am highly suspicious of the notion that evolution left all races equally intelligent. So I'm left to question each side.

    Do the Chinese have an overall higher intelligence than, say, Aboriginees of Australia? Looking at history, I can see that certain races advanced far faster than other races. All humans can almost be treated like a bacteria, with different strains of the same virus, what with the way we've spread.

    Do you think evolution, with it's "magical" ability to cause people to vary from physical features and skin color, change everthing save mental competence? If mental competence wasn't touched in the slightest so that all races are equally intelligent, do you think physical prowess was also untouched in the slightest? What other things do you think political correctn---ehm, evolution, decide to leave equal?

    Please support your claims with evidence otherwise this'll just be a repeat of the other thread.

    EDIT: "Ye" is "yes". Confound you, Computer.
    it's an interesting question. I would be tempted to apply strict theory and argue that the populations situated to engage in the most competition would be the ones that had developed the greatest mental abilities. Perhaps Jews really are smarter than all the rest of us .

    However, IQ has been demonstrated to flow as well from environmental factors - and certainly none of us would argue that ones ability to apply ones' intelligence to the world around them is heightened or lowered by environment - the mind can be exercised and strengthened like a muscle.

    To define it within "races", however, is overly simplistic. Even if one was arguing for a straight nature response, the genetic variation within the races is too wide.
    Last edited by cpwill; 09-16-11 at 07:17 AM.

  5. #145
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    This is a common Fallacious tactic used by the PC in debates like this.
    Of course, when one points out that Humans and some Primates showed 99% similarity, it Busts it, and demonstrates there's still Plenty of room for things like IQ difference among human 'strains'....
    If there's 1% difference between human and primate, it still doesn't "demonstrate" that "there's still Plenty of room for things like IQ difference among human 'strains'." It's jumping to conclusion to say that. That human is 99% like primates genetically just doesn't lead to the conclusion that there is enough difference among the human races to group them genetically. This issue always come back to how we define "race". If we want to talk genetic, is there any dependable scientific method to determine a person's "race" genetically? If I use this method, can it tell me if Obama is "black" or "white"? If it can, we can then proceed to study what are the genetic differences between these "races" and whether these genetic differences actually affect intelligence. Another way would be to identify genes that affect intelligence, and find if those genes are more likely to be found in certain group of population characterised by certain physical characteristics. Maybe science will find that the gene that makes someone have black skin also causes them to have less synapses and less intelligence. Until then, you are jumping the gun.


    And IQ difference of a Statistically Significant nature; 1 Standard deviation or More (3) in some cases/between some races.
    And what are these studies? Link please.



    1. The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores. East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, Both in the U. S. and in Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture. Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa.
    [.....]
    That's the 1 std deviation difference the other posters dispute. And this gap is decreasing.

    3. The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.
    There are questions about the validity of the studies that claim the 50% heritability of IQ as well: The heritability of IQ. [Nature. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

    A lot of studies in the past don't properly account for the womb environment and the mother's physical condition during pregnancy. Studies that measure IQ after birth will tend to have this problem since it's very hard to isolate these factors and genes without actually looking at the genes itself.

    4. Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.
    This is a common heuristic problem. It's like saying: P(A/B) > P(A/B') and P(B/C) > P(B>C') and therefore P(A/C)>P(A/C'), P(A/C) might be bigger than P(A/C') but you have to measure that to know for sure, inferring from the probability of the first two is not always correct.

    If I gave you these statements:

    Probability of getting false positive is higher with ovary cancer than non-ovary cancer
    Probability of getting ovary cancer is higher in older women than in younger women
    It doesn't follow that the Probability of getting a false positive is higher in older women.

    Here it's easy see that one of the factors that confound the third probability is the background probability of getting ovary and non-ovary cancer among the two groups of women. If older women are also more likely to get non-ovary cancer, and the probability of false positive is low enough in non-ovary cancer, then it's not true that older women are more likely to get a false positive. Likewise in reading the probability of intelligence. How much does brain size explains intelligence? If it's small enough, it doesn't follow that having a smaller head size will result in less intelligence if it's overtaken by other factors that affect intelligence. If brain size explains most of our intelligence, then we should expect to find men are much more intelligent than women since their brain is much bigger - but they are not.


    5. Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ Remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.
    This is the same roughly 1 std deviation difference and still doesn't account for what happens in the womb and before adoption, or the effect of racial identity. The author themselves wouldn't say that it's due to genetic differences.

    The fact of the matter is that these studies all have differences that are not statistically significant and do not properly control for other environmental factors. To use them as if they proof anything conclusively is unscientific.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 09-16-11 at 07:42 AM.
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it's an interesting question. I would be tempted to apply strict theory and argue that the populations situated to engage in the most competition would be the ones that had developed the greatest mental abilities. Perhaps Jews really are smarter than all the rest of us .

    However, IQ has been demonstrated to flow as well from environmental factors - and certainly none of us would argue that ones ability to apply ones' intelligence to the world around them is heightened or lowered by environment - the mind can be exercised and strengthened like a muscle.

    To define it within "races", however, is overly simplistic. Even if one was arguing for a straight nature response, the genetic variation within the races is too wide.
    IQ is a horrible measure of overall intelligence and problem solving ability. Best example: I spent most of my life around farmers. The medium to big farmers are mostly high school educated if they finished and do not perform well on IQ tests. However, these guys can plan out crops for several thousand acres and figure out seed needs in their heads for that. They can weld and machine on mills and lathes. They can do small and large engine repair, fix hydraulics, and program programmable controllers. They can manage betwen 5 and 20 farm hands. They can look at a weathermap and make predictions as good or better than meteorologists. They follow and understand the markets that they deal in. They handle all their businesses finances, including taxes and paperwork for their employees. In the last 15 to 20 years they have also learned to be computer literate and some of them can do more with a computer than most people. In a couple cases you can add livestock management to their abilities, with all that goes with that. And yet if you talked with them outside of those areas you would immediately note their small vocabulary and ignorance of on things we take for granted.
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Let's make a deal - I won't tutor you in physics and you don't tutor me on population genetics. OK?
    No deal. If I say something wrong about physics, such as claiming gravity causes mass instead of the reverse, for example, you can feel free to correct me on it.

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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Yeah, ok. You guys go on believing that drift and mutation are factors apart from evolution.
    Who believes that?

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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    People are equal in absolute terms and not equal in nominal terms.

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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No deal. If I say something wrong about physics, such as claiming gravity causes mass instead of the reverse, for example, you can feel free to correct me on it.
    OK, then. Please define for us the processes of evolution as they work at the population level such that they generate genetic variance and MORE IMPORTANTLY please list for us the factors other than those which operate under the engine of evolution which work to generate population level genetic variance.

    Don't dodge this question. You're making a serious claim here, at least to me, that I don't understand what I'm writing about. You would be doing a great service to your fellow liberal creationists on this board to show me up as the fool that you think me to be. Your mouth has led you to make this challenge so demonstrate for us that you understand the process of how population level genetic variance is induced and what processes outside of evolution you have in mind when you made your charge.

    There is only one process that could plausibly be considered "outside" of the processes which comprise the driving factors of evolution which is powerful enough to induce some population level genetic variance and even this process is rightly a subset of one of the principal drivers of evolution.
    Last edited by RiverDad; 09-16-11 at 05:19 PM.

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