View Poll Results: Did evolution leave all races with equal mental and physical competency?

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Thread: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

  1. #131
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I said "insignificant" not "identical." That distinction is crucial. The Human Genome Project showed 99.9% similarity. The differences among humans, however one wants to group them, are insignificant. Furthermore, you completely misunderstood the analogy that references races (or any other grouping of humans) and species. Intra-species differences are very small compared to inter-species ones.
    This is a common Fallacious tactic used by the PC in debates like this.
    Of course, when one points out that Humans and some Primates showed 99% similarity, it Busts it, and demonstrates there's still Plenty of room for things like IQ difference among human 'strains'....

    I said "credible" studies. I'm aware of the existence of discredited and, in the Jensen case, poorly-designed ones. There are no meaningful differences.
    And IQ difference of a Statistically Significant nature; 1 Standard deviation or More (3) in some cases/between some races.
    Last edited by mbig; 09-16-11 at 01:13 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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  2. #132
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    I am going to take your example here.

    I assume you chose the Chinese because they are a developing civilization and appear to be quite intelligent, and I also assume you chose the Aboriginees of Australia because they appear to do nothing but play with rocks or something like that (no heavy thinking).

    If you take a chinese newborn and take him to live with the Aboriginees and you take a baby from Austrailia and raise him in China, what will the outcome be?

    I think intelligence is fostered and groomed from day one, and if you are in a society like China, where you need a strong brain to survive, the child will come out smarter and able to solve problems.
    ...Actually, they've already thought of that and already demonstrated you're Wrong with Trans-racial adoption studies. (ie, Minnesota)
    Asian babies adopted into white families had higher avg IQ than whites, and Black lower IQ than whites.
    All starting equal, adopted into in white families.
    See below.
    Last edited by mbig; 09-16-11 at 01:42 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    From a previous string:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/scienc...enetics-3.html

    Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic
    Race differences in average IQ are Largely Genetic
    Medical Research News
    26-Apr-2005

    A 60-page review of the scientific evidence, some based on state-of-the-art magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) of brain size, has concluded that race differences in average IQ are largely genetic.

    The lead article in the June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy and Law, a journal of the American Psychological Association, examined 10 categories of research evidence from around the world to contrast "a hereditarian model (50% genetic-50% cultural) and a culture-only model (0% genetic-100% cultural)."

    The paper, "Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability," by J. Philippe Rushton of the University of Western Ontario and Arthur R. Jensen of the University of California at Berkeley, appeared with a positive commentary by Linda Gottfredson of the University of Delaware, three critical ones (by Robert Sternberg of Yale University, Richard Nisbett of the University of Michigan, and Lisa Suzuki & Joshua Aronson of New York University), and the authors' reply.

    "Neither the existence nor the size of race differences in IQ are a matter of dispute, only their cause," write the authors. The Black-White difference has been found consistently from the time of the massive World War I Army testing of 90 years ago to a massive study of over 6 million corporate, military, and higher-education test-takers in 2001.

    "Race differences show up by 3 years of age, even AFTER matching on maternal education and other variables," said Rushton. "Therefore they CANNOT be due to poor education since this has not yet begun to exert an effect. That's why Jensen and I looked at the genetic hypothesis in detail. We examined 10 categories of evidence."

    1. The Worldwide Pattern of IQ Scores. East Asians average higher on IQ tests than Whites, Both in the U. S. and in Asia, even though IQ tests were developed for use in the Euro-American culture. Around the world, the average IQ for East Asians centers around 106; for Whites, about 100; and for Blacks about 85 in the U.S. and 70 in sub-Saharan Africa.
    [.....]
    3. The Gene-Environment Architecture of IQ is the Same in all Races, and Race Differences are Most Pronounced on More Heritable Abilities. Studies of Black, White, and East Asian twins, for example, show the heritability of IQ is 50% or higher in all races.

    4. Brain Size Differences. Studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) find a correlation of brain size with IQ of about 0.40. Larger brains contain more neurons and synapses and process information faster. Race differences in brain size are present at birth. By adulthood, East Asians average 1 cubic inch more cranial capacity than Whites who average 5 cubic inches more than Blacks.

    5. Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ Remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.

    6. Racial Admixture Studies. Black children with lighter skin, for example, average higher IQ scores. In South Africa, the IQ of the mixed-race "Colored" population averages 85, intermediate to the African 70 and White 100.
    [.............]
    Last edited by mbig; 09-16-11 at 01:49 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  4. #134
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    This is a common Fallacious tactic used by the PC in debates like this.
    Of course, when one points out that Humans and some Primates showed 99% similarity, it Busts it, and demonstrates there's still Plenty of room for things like IQ difference among human 'strains'....

    And IQ difference of a Statistically Significant nature; a Standard deviation or More in some cases/races.
    This is like one of those "don't want to touch it with a 50 foot pole topics" ... but against my best instincts I'll join the conversation anyway.

    I have not personally heard of any evidence that would suggest that there are significant within species differences between races. This is likely because most researchers don't want to touch the subject with a 50 foot poll either (it'd probably be hard to get funding for such projects). Most evidence that has been sited is confounded by environmental factors (such as growing up in a poor undereducated area). I think that there is a better case, as of now, for differences between races in regards to physical qualities, however, as the races intertwine over the years to come, those differences will likely disappear.

    Differences such as skeletal structure (which influences muscle arrangements) are clearly evident. Additionally, such differences make sense as over the years different genetic makeups were more favored or not depending on one's geographical area of origin. Small within species changes like this can occur and we see this in dogs (for example). The difference of course is that in dogs, the traits were selected for by men/women and in humans traits were selected for by the environment (so to speak).

    It has been found that people of who's indigenous origins where in high altitude and low temperature, were shorter and stockier than those whose origin was a lower altitude and a hotter environment. This makes sense as more heat can be stored in a stockier body and heat can escape more easily from a slender body.

    Could this type of thing be having an effect on the brain? This is a good question and it is likely that it does, (as the brain is a physical part of us) however, it is likely a very small difference. This does not mean that any one race is smarter than another, just that certain races may have different physiological presentations (significant in appearance, not in genetics) and that some races may be genetically better at certain mental activities than other races. This of course does not mean I.Q. - which is supposed to be a measure of intelligence. All races are likely to preform relatively the equally on IQ once environmental factors (such as impoverishment) are taken out of the equation. However, there may be some differences in thinking styles (other than those affected by cultural factors) between races.

    It should be noted that because most types of dogs, if released into the wild, will no longer look like their dog type of origin within a only few generations (they will simply look like other wild dogs), that it is likely that in humans, most of the differences are being lessened even as we speak.
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 09-16-11 at 01:45 AM.

  5. #135
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    This is like one of those "don't want to touch it with a 50 foot pole topics" ... but against my best instincts I'll join the conversation anyway.
    I understand.
    This is among, if not Thee, most contentious/dangerous/Un-PC issue there is.

    Wikipedia has dramatically changed it's entry for 'Race and Intelligence' to a PC point where it is Unrecognizable vs the Fact filled one of a few years ago.
    This is where Wikipedia is weakest/least useful; where social issue cross fact.
    Now it's full of Apologetics while dropping Poignant studies, charts, graphs.

    I have not personally heard of any evidence that would suggest that there are significant within species differences between races. ...
    I just posted some immediately above. Probably while you were making your long reply to my previous one.
    Reconsider please.
    Last edited by mbig; 09-16-11 at 01:58 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  6. #136
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    "Did evolution leave all races with equal mental and physical competency?"

    Yes, Wake, everyone but you and we try to take that into account when responding to or avoiding your questions.

  7. #137
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    The answer is No when talking about averages, but the range of all "races" overlap each other in which it is possible for someone from any race to achieve any possible feat others can. So this makes it wrong to judge someone on their race because they easily could be above average and most tasks,goals,jobs don't even need half the potential then the average range on intelligence and ability.

    For example, If the government was set up to randomly choose from birth what a baby would do for a job in their adult life. In the most clean-cut coldest sense all scientist/mathematicians would be chosen to be Jews then asian (due to better computational skills on average). All football/basketball players would be black except for QB's... ect.

    And it's proven that Kenyans do have better breathing/Oxygen lung capacity, and people of African decent have faster muscle twitches (whatever that means). People of african decent have a higher risk of sickle-cell anemia by a whole lot for then any other race. People with blonde hair and blue eyes have bigger dicks on average then those with brown hair+ eyes. People with african decent on average have bigger dicks. We look on average different with grouping of physically characteristics, Europeans get sunburned easier, and Africans that live up north have to make sure they don't get Vitamin D deficiency...etc. etc.

    Averages can sometimes be misused to discriminate, so it is naturally to want to defend against this idea; because it would propbably better for everyone in the end even if you are wrong.

    As for classification of "race" that people are having such a hard to time to define. I will help you out. First off... it isn't absolutely defined, it lingers in the background of majority ancestors contributing to your genes, which can be quite complex... BUT you don't need to fully compute the system, you are able to extract meaningful(figuratively) information through many different statistics that actually can pretty reliable to determine very subtle differences between two populations. "race" is a very generalized term, intentionally so, but does give reasons to certain studies done on average abilities and tendencies.

    First you have your close family- brother, sister, mom, dad->>>>> due to genetics you all have some tendencies you share that would be unlikely shared as closely outside your family. On AVERAGE in comparison to other families, smart mom's and dad's produce smart children, strong moms and dads produce strong children, heart-attack prone mom's and dad's produce heart-attack prone children.

    Then, Extended family->>>>> many members of extended family can have certain tendencies that can pass down and spread to the rest. On average the qualities of an extended family is more similar to each other and different from other extended families. This genetic grouping is much more diverse then the first group.

    SUper extended Family----->>>> Similarities between members seem to diminish, especially depending on whether the ancestry is more homogeneous or not.

    Genetic groupings are only significant when all those contributing has something in common that can be directly attached to something.
    But then there is a further ancestry grouping that actually starts to become somewhat significant again, and that is Continental ancestry. In modern times this isn't starting to be not as much of a factor, but through the vast majority of our gene-pools, we all came from very specific continental climates. Depending on the cultures of the area, some are more homogeneous then others. For example Africans, depending on the specific area are actually much more different amongst other nearby African cultures then, for example, Northern European populations over the last few thousand years. Europeans did a lot more inter-breeding amongst their own culture then the Africans inhabitants have. Ethiopian Africans are more genetically diverse then any other people in the world.
    The different climates and historical cultural differences have contributed to the slight differences in the averages (some differences arn't so alight at all, like skin color disease resistance and such)

  8. #138
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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    I understand.
    This is among, if not Thee, most contentious/dangerous/Un-PC issues there is.

    Wikipedia has dramatically changed it's entry for 'Race and Intelligence' to a PC point where it is Unrecognizable vs the Fact filled one of a few years ago.
    This is where Wikipedia is weakest/least useful; where social issue cross fact.
    Now it's full of Apologetics while dropping studies, charts, graphs.


    I just posted some immediately above. Probably while you were making your long reply to my previous one.
    Reconsider please.
    The finding that is most significant to me is the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    5. Trans-Racial Adoption Studies. Race differences in IQ Remain following adoption by White middle class parents. East Asians grow to average higher IQs than Whites while Blacks score lower. The Minnesota Trans-Racial Adoption Study followed children to age 17 and found race differences were even greater than at age 7: White children, 106; Mixed-Race children, 99; and Black children, 89.
    This finding is something that I do not think many people would want to be exposed. However, it does make anthropological and evolutionary sense. Unfortunately, this would give people just another reason to hate science and evolution.

    It's hard to argue with adoption studies .. however, I will note that the difference was only 17 points from the two groups which is not too much (but yes still significant). It also makes sense considering our ability to bread for certain traits in dogs (within species changes), for both physical and mental traits.

    After seeing this, I really want to see some other evidence that would rebut this claim.

    Finally, I'd like to note (as I did in my previous post) that there has been lots of intermingling of the races and this will only continue. Therefore, any small differences that exist now, will only get smaller and smaller to the point of non-significance.
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 09-16-11 at 02:00 AM.

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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    The answer is No when talking about averages, but the range of all "races" overlap each other in which it is possible for someone from any race to achieve any possible feat others can. So this makes it wrong to judge someone on their race because they easily could be above average and most tasks,goals,jobs don't even need half the potential then the average range on intelligence and ability.
    Totally agree with this

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    For example, If the government was set up to randomly choose from birth what a baby would do for a job in their adult life. In the most clean-cut coldest sense all scientist/mathematicians would be chosen to be Jews then asian (due to better computational skills on average). All football/basketball players would be black except for QB's... ect.

    And it's proven that Kenyans do have better breathing/Oxygen lung capacity, and people of African decent have faster muscle twitches (whatever that means). People of african decent have a higher risk of sickle-cell anemia by a whole lot for then any other race. People with blonde hair and blue eyes have bigger dicks on average then those with brown hair+ eyes. People with african decent on average have bigger dicks. We look on average different with grouping of physically characteristics, Europeans get sunburned easier, and Africans that live up north have to make sure they don't get Vitamin D deficiency...etc. etc.

    Averages can sometimes be misused to discriminate, so it is naturally to want to defend against this idea; because it would propbably better for everyone in the end even if you are wrong.
    Yeah, I am glad that to my knowledge the government does not make policies revolving around averages regarding certain testing on different races.

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    Re: Did evolution leave all races equal in terms of mental and physical competence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    "Did evolution leave all races with equal mental and physical competency?"Yes, Wake, everyone but you and we try to take that into account when responding to or avoiding your questions.
    Why are you trolling? Does it make you feel more secure? That makes you seem like an embarrassment.
    Last edited by Wake; 09-16-11 at 02:20 AM.

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