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Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

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    Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Do you agree with Ron Paul's POV, that the uninsured should be denied life-saving medical care?

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Do you agree with Ron Paul's POV, that the uninsured should be denied life-saving medical care?
    I don't see anything here that says he wants to deny health care to the uninsured.

    From his book:
    In the days before Medicare and Medicaid, the poor and elderly were admitted to hospitals at the same rate they are now, and received good care. Before those programs came into existence, every physician understood that he or she had a responsibility towards the less fortunate and free medical care was the norm. Hardly anyone is aware of this today, since it doesn’t fit into the typical, by the script story of government rescuing us from a predatory private sector.
    As for last night, his exact words were:

    Ron Paul: That's what freedom is all about: taking your own risks. This whole idea that you need a single payer to take care of everybody....
    Blitzer: So are you saying society should let him die?
    Ron Paul: No. I practiced medicine, uh....before we had Medicaid. In the early 1960s when I got out of medical school. I practiced at Santa Rosa Hospital in San Antonio and churches took care of them. We never turned anybody away from the hospitals. And we've given up on this whole concept of...that we might take care of ourselves or assume responsibility for ourselves...our neighbors, our communities, our churches would do it. This whole idea...that's the reason the cost is so high. The cost is so high because we dump it on the government, it becomes a beaurocracy, it becomes special interests, it cow-tows to the insurance companies and the drug companies. Then on top of that you have the inflation. The inflation devalues the dollar. We have lack of competition. There's no competition in medicine. Everybody is protected by licensing. We should actually legalize alternative healthcare; allow people to practice what they want.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Funny how all this would be solved if we just adopted the obvious solution: universal healthcare.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Ron Paul is living in a fantasy world. When people don't have health insurance and cannot afford their health treatment, they either get lucky and have someone else help them out or they die. Thousands of Americans die each year because they can't afford healthcare. This study found that uninsured Americans are 1.8 times as likely to die as insured ones:

    http://www.pnhp.org/excessdeaths/hea...-US-adults.pdf

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Funny how all this would be solved if we just adopted the obvious solution: universal healthcare.
    The government can't even run a licensing program efficiently. I do not want them controlling healthcare.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    Ron Paul is living in a fantasy world. When people don't have health insurance and cannot afford their health treatment, they either get lucky and have someone else help them out or they die. Thousands of Americans die each year because they can't afford healthcare. This study found that uninsured Americans are 1.8 times as likely to die as insured ones:

    http://www.pnhp.org/excessdeaths/hea...-US-adults.pdf
    The question asked last night wasn't about people who can't afford insurance, but people who choose not to have insurance. He also addressed the issue of the cost of medical treatment, which is the biggest inhibiting factor to access for people who cannot afford insurance.

    Did that study look into the lifestyle differences of insured v. uninsured? Or did it just do a surface examination with no other evidentiary findings?
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    The government can't even run a licensing program efficiently. I do not want them controlling healthcare.
    No one else could do it. Even if private corporations had any interest in helping those who can't make them rich, they don't have the massive amount of infrastructure to make it happen. But seriously, if you want government to be more effective at running the programs it takes on, stop handcuffing it. Get the private interests away from government. Get out the lobby money, get out the corporate campaign donations. Those massive 2000 page bills will shrink pretty quickly if they only need to tackle one issue. And then stop funneling money into the upper classes, where it does no one any good. Government is ineffective because we make it that way. Give it the means to accomplish the tasks we set it to, and it will be able to do them.

    But it already does most things better than the private sector.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    No one else could do it. Even if private corporations had any interest in helping those who can't make them rich, they don't have the massive amount of infrastructure to make it happen. But seriously, if you want government to be more effective at running the programs it takes on, stop handcuffing it. Get the private interests away from government. Get out the lobby money, get out the corporate campaign donations. Those massive 2000 page bills will shrink pretty quickly if they only need to tackle one issue. And then stop funneling money into the upper classes, where it does no one any good. Government is ineffective because we make it that way. Give it the means to accomplish the tasks we set it to, and it will be able to do them.

    But it already does most things better than the private sector.
    Nice rant. Completely unrelated to my analogy, though.

    How long to do wait at the DPS? After filling out a form the size of a postcard and gathering your birth certificate and SS card, how long are you made to wait until you get your license? How about the tax office? The DMV? Ever had to deal with the Fish and Wildlife department? What about the IRS? These are all programs and departments devised entirely by the government to regulate and control actions legislated by the government. And they're all bound up in red tape, lines, waiting lists, untrained, unprofessional, incapable staff, and tons upon tons of misinformation.

    So you can blame everybody but the government for government inefficiency....but it's just more party-line nonsense designed to villify the people you like the least. Even if you consider the parties you mentioned above...guess what? The government decided whether or not those parties had any influence. So they're still the ones with their pants down here.

    We can't even bid on a government job without jumping through a ridiculous number of hoops, and all we do is clean carpets. So I'm sorry if I don't fall into lock-step with the "government is our savior" bullhockey spewed as a justification for handing them the reigns and ability to train, regulate, monitor, and select the guy who measures out my anesthesia before surgery.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    Do you agree with Ron Paul's POV, that the uninsured should be denied life-saving medical care?
    I agree with tessaesque, Ron Paul did not say this, I believe that if your going to start a debate, start it with a true question like....
    Do you agree with the audience of the debate, on whether we should deny life-saving medical care to the uninsured?

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Nice rant. Completely unrelated to my analogy, though.

    How long to do wait at the DPS? After filling out a form the size of a postcard and gathering your birth certificate and SS card, how long are you made to wait until you get your license? How about the tax office? The DMV? Ever had to deal with the Fish and Wildlife department? What about the IRS? These are all programs and departments devised entirely by the government to regulate and control actions legislated by the government. And they're all bound up in red tape, lines, waiting lists, untrained, unprofessional, incapable staff, and tons upon tons of misinformation.

    So you can blame everybody but the government for government inefficiency....but it's just more party-line nonsense designed to villify the people you like the least. Even if you consider the parties you mentioned above...guess what? The government decided whether or not those parties had any influence. So they're still the ones with their pants down here.

    We can't even bid on a government job without jumping through a ridiculous number of hoops, and all we do is clean carpets. So I'm sorry if I don't fall into lock-step with the "government is our savior" bullhockey spewed as a justification for handing them the reigns and ability to train, regulate, monitor, and select the guy who measures out my anesthesia before surgery.
    i don't know, my dmv allows you to make appointments online, and you just breeze through. piece of cake. i also had to go through a number of "to dos" to get my masters captain's license, and while they were numerous, they were accomplished smoothly, including the homeland security required twic. i also got my fishing licesne on-line, again, piece of cake.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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