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Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

coming from a Country that has a working UHC scheme, i don't understand such anger and animosity at the thought of the government having some control over your health care. it's not like what you have now is working or anything special.

do you understand that while you have been so hell bent on shouting down the public option, all you have been doing is lobbying to keep pouring money into the pockets of insurance companies who have been the ones rationing healthcare today. the health insurance companies do not care about you. if they did they would not focus so much of their time trying to get out of paying claims and compromising yours and your families health while premiums keep increasing.

at the end of the day, it's really not much good having some of the best health care facilities and Doctors in the world (which the US do), if people don't have access to it in a timely and afforable manner.
 
But I AM forced to pay rent. Sorry to keep using the obvious example of a coercive force being used to force someone to buy something they don't want to buy. But you guys think THAT one is perfectly ok.

I've asked you before and I'm doing it again - make a case for your complaint. I don't understand what's eating you.

If you don't want to pay rent then you don't have to. I do believe that you can go and live in Alaska, out on Federal land so far from any Ranger station that no one will bother you and try to collect money from you. If that's a little too independent for you there are shelters for homeless people in most cities and towns and they don't change people rent. Then there is the Matt Foley Plan - living in a van down by the river. There are also a lot of people in the US who live without paying rent - they drive their RVs from city to city and they park overnight in WalMart parking lots and such and then move on come morning.

So it's possible for you to avoid paying rent. Now, if I build a house and want to rent it out, why would I want to let people live in that house for free? Houses and apartments don't just magically appear from nowhere - someone is putting their resources towards building and maintaining these units. If they had to let people live in them for free then they wouldn't build them in the first place.

I'm just not understanding what you're going on about.
 
And I've never met a scientist who refuses to work for an employer because it wont result in the enrichment of a stockholder.

Well, I know lots of scientists who refuse to work for an employer who gives them a rock, a stump to sit on, and a stick to draw in the dirt with, and then declares that we wants the scientist to devise an improvement on an MRI machine or what have you.

All the scientists I know in private industry and academia actually like to use specialized tools and like to work in specialized facilities and the money for all of that infrastructure has to come from somewhere as does the money for all the salary and benefits that flow to the scientists regardless of whether products are successful and while they're still in the research and development phase.

All the scientists I know don't really care that much about how much their employers are making off of their labor so long as they feel that they're fairly compensated for their work.
 
Shoot the entire society? That would be the "hostage" in this example.
Sorry that you didn't get the reference. For those of us that did, it was rather funny.
 
Wrong. Absolutely.
Really.
Please show how your response flows logically from what I said in the post you responded to.
Before you further embarass yourself, you should probably go back and read what that post said.

Wrong again.
I am -absolutely- correct.

Refusing to treat someone because they cannot pay is putting the value of money over or equal to the value of their life. It's a logical conclusion following your original statement.
You clearly do not understand the point.
No... not the value of money... but the value of the time and effort that the person who is paying for the goods and services he did not receive expended in order to cover the costs of your medical care, and his right to retain these things for his own use. After all, HE earned it; you did not.
You're arguing that your right supercedes his, and so he should pay for your medical treatment.

Still wrong. i addressed every point in your post.
With an apalling degree of inefficacy.
 
But I AM forced to pay rent.
You chose to enter a contract with someone that specifically states you will compensate that someone for your use of his property.
Show how that is at all a similar situation.
 
I've asked you before and I'm doing it again - make a case for your complaint. I don't understand what's eating you.

If you don't want to pay rent then you don't have to. I do believe that you can go and live in Alaska, out on Federal land so far from any Ranger station that no one will bother you and try to collect money from you. If that's a little too independent for you there are shelters for homeless people in most cities and towns and they don't change people rent. Then there is the Matt Foley Plan - living in a van down by the river. There are also a lot of people in the US who live without paying rent - they drive their RVs from city to city and they park overnight in WalMart parking lots and such and then move on come morning.

So it's possible for you to avoid paying rent. Now, if I build a house and want to rent it out, why would I want to let people live in that house for free? Houses and apartments don't just magically appear from nowhere - someone is putting their resources towards building and maintaining these units. If they had to let people live in them for free then they wouldn't build them in the first place.

I'm just not understanding what you're going on about.

The key word is avoid.

Legally, if you want to live where anything is, you are required to pay rent. A result of the enclosing of the Commons. A practice dating from around the 14th century in europe. When kings declared all the dirt their "property". The whole map. Then passed it out to their cronies to garner their support. Like most of the country was doled out to cronies and con men.

This is the primary glitch in various forms of libertarian thinking. Government is bad except when it is aiding me in controlling more of the Commons than I could on my own. Then its the bee's knees!

Government should be limited to protecting my rights to life, liberty, and dominion over the land as far as the eye can see. Its currently defined as property, but the Lockean concept of property was limited to what one could actually personally use, not charge those who came later forever because their ancestors got somewhere first.

Don't tell me you're totally ignorant of the concept of the Commons.

Or that rents devolve from government enforced property rights. At one point they did. You rented someones nice house instead of living in a tent outside town or whatever because you CHOSE to do so. Not because the sheriff comes and takes you to jail for vagrancy.

My point is that refusal to address ALL forms of coercion that result in involuntary redistribution of wealth is indicative of picking and chossing what forms of coercion you support and which you defend. Which is NOT the position most of those arguing as you do take. Rent is functionally a TAX levied by owners of property on those who don't, enforced by government.

Move to the middle of nowhere doesn't remove the coercive nature, it demonstrates it. And wilderness passes are required everywhere to camp. Eating off the land is technically illegal as well to a degree that one could actually survive on.

Not all wal-marts allow overnighting, and when they do its one night. Rvs eat a lot of gas. Its the equivalent of being required to move your entire herd to a whole different valley everyday til the train gets in.

Its not complicated, but it is amazing how many people find it so. The problem is that its totally made up and subject to revision like all the things the right hates so much, but because they like that part, they actually can't allow themselves to "see" it because the cognitive dissonance would be too great.
 
You chose to enter a contract with someone that specifically states you will compensate that someone for your use of his property.
Show how that is at all a similar situation.

I am currently bound by no contract. I offered no one money to lay my head. I intend to sleep on public land. A park maybe.

Try again, this amuses the hell out of me.
 
Government should be limited to protecting my rights to life, liberty, and dominion over the land as far as the eye can see. Its currently defined as property, but the Lockean concept of property was limited to what one could actually personally use, not charge those who came later forever because their ancestors got somewhere first.

Don't tell me you're totally ignorant of the concept of the Commons.

Or that rents devolve from government enforced property rights. At one point they did. You rented someones nice house instead of living in a tent outside town or whatever because you CHOSE to do so. Not because the sheriff comes and takes you to jail for vagrancy.

I know quite a bit about the theory of the Commons, the Tragedy of the Commons and principles like the Common Heritage of Mankind.

What I don't know is how you structure a society where, I take it, you get to live in an apartment somewhere that magically exists and doesn't require you to pay rent. That's got me as curious as all get out.
 
I know quite a bit about the theory of the Commons, the Tragedy of the Commons and principles like the Common Heritage of Mankind.

What I don't know is how you structure a society where, I take it, you get to live in an apartment somewhere that magically exists and doesn't require you to pay rent. That's got me as curious as all get out.

So how does the right to life, liberty and land require someone else to pay for someone's rent again? I must have missed that point.

If equal opportunity existed (equal opportunity, not equal outcome), people had rights to land at birth, there was population control, there was a security net (welfare) system that encouraged people to get off that system, along with requiring living wages and no outsourcing .. I don't think paying someone elses rent would be a problem.
 
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Ron Paul is living in a fantasy world. When people don't have health insurance and cannot afford their health treatment, they either get lucky and have someone else help them out or they die. Thousands of Americans die each year because they can't afford healthcare. This study found that uninsured Americans are 1.8 times as likely to die as insured ones:

http://www.pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insurance-and-mortality-in-US-adults.pdf

An affordable public option similar to medicare or Universal coverage is the only solution.

Honest working people are dying because they cannot afford healthcare and tax payers are over burdened with many fraudulently using some systems. A public option would have brought real competition in payors or a Universal payor that people pay for ... is the only answer.

Ron Paul's stand on this issue is pure foolishness. In a church congregation of 2000 ... if 12 uninsured a year have a health care crisis we are talking millions of dollars to cover their bills.

HCR requiring citizens be insured and offering an affordable public option was the only hope and a move towards Universal.

Obama was right on target with his initial HCR ... and yes I read the legislation. We have legislation requiring we provide care ... and there fore we need to have an affordable option for citizens. I can afford my 2000$ premium for my family as my employer pays for part of this premium.

http://www.emtala.com/

The above legislation is the only moral answer ... yet our public servants have failed us by not providing a solution that requires that Americans be responsible and be insured and that there is affordable insurance for citizens. ...and yea .. that goes along with a living wage.
another caveat to this discussion is that is roadblocks jobs ... as many americans who would like to start a business stay in dead end jobs for the insurance coverage ... and many companies mover operations to countries that have Universal coverage.
 
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I know quite a bit about the theory of the Commons, the Tragedy of the Commons and principles like the Common Heritage of Mankind.

What I don't know is how you structure a society where, I take it, you get to live in an apartment somewhere that magically exists and doesn't require you to pay rent. That's got me as curious as all get out.

I am actually capable of providing my needs from the Commons. I am forbidden to do so because there are no Commons.

Its not an alien concept that private property has exceeded the intents of the founders. They lived in a wide open world, but they came from one where the landed classes lived fat off of rents. In their time, many went off and carved a little piece out of the Commons. This didn't require them to go to some isolated ****hole, just past where others had carved their places.

Government and law allowed the amassing of huge land holdings, as only they can. Rent, except in the form of "Gerties boarding house for travelers" forms, is functionally a tax.

Imagine it this way. Simplified, but accurate to a large degree.

My dad and your dad race up the last hill to a new valley.

Your dad gets there first. Yells "Mine", and gets to charge my dad and all his descendents 25% of everything they produce forever.

Please don't cherry pick this example to death.

My point is that MOST of the things you would like to change, and those I would like to change, are subject to change because they are made up.

Nobody HAS any rights. They are a product of society and the states.

I think everybody thinks a right to property is appropriate.

I don't think everybody thinks an UNLIMITED right to property is appropriate.

I don't think MOST people do.

Perhaps some potential "solutions" to the "problem" of rents as they currently exist would be helpful. These are "mine" so can't be sourced.

Let me live in my RV.

Provide space near town, on transit, where people can pitch a tent/grab a cot, bathrooms with steel toilets and solar showers. Pass out transit passes. No excuse to be sleeping in doorways (see, side benefit).

I think "the dole" should be cots in dorms with enough "Batchelor Chow" to provide basic nutrition and that's about it for the able bodied. Better for kids, situationally displaced etc.(I am liberal afterall).

All of these thing I feel would provide a large net benefit at a reasonable cost, without encouraging dependency.

All of the above return rent to a non-coercive form, as alternatives are available. Synthetic Commons, if you will. Mechanisms to replace their function in a crowded world.

Instead of sayin', too bad so sad, shoulda been born sooner. Or whatever.

Consider:

College kids could save a crapload of money.

Families who see sudden losses of industry in their area can move to a new place BEFORE they're almost bankrupt.

The homeless have a place to be, so they got no excuse to be sleeping in thei own piss in peoples doorways. And who knows how their paradigms might change, what opportunities they might encounter in some model like this.

Its something I've thought about quite a bit. That sleeping has been privatised, and nobody seems to notice. That people cough up 25% of their gross or more to landlords, every month. That a program designed to get some of these people off of this treadmill was used and abused to the point where it almost crashed the economy. And the widespread fraud the FBI expressed concerning these programs was estimated to be 80% on the part of LENDERS, but the meme that survived was that it was caused by the 20% that comprised customers.

I lived outlaw in my rv for a year as an experiment. We are back indoors now because we choose to be.

Our total housing expenses during that year? Utilities and all?

$300/mo.

In San Diego CA.

Moving the rig daily and never sleeping in the same place more than once a month or so. So most of that was fuel.

We had a bed, a kitchen, a bath with shower, a seating area. Etc. Everything everybody has in a house, just smaller. Gas for cooking, refrig was maybe $10 month.

The differential between "normal" cost of living and what we paid was simply ridiculous. Damn near criminal.

We were literally saving over a grand a month, best as we could estimate. Compared to a house or apartment of roughly adjusted size, and we have pets.

A thousand dollars a month to be in compliance with the law. A thousand dollars a month that would have gone into a landlords pocket, every month, forever.

So 80% of rent is "markup" more or less, and that don't seem like a free market price.

Some kind of Synthetic Commons would certainly exert downward pressure, by removing coercion from the equation.
 
I am actually capable of providing my needs from the Commons. I am forbidden to do so because there are no Commons.

Its not an alien concept that private property has exceeded the intents of the founders. They lived in a wide open world, but they came from one where the landed classes lived fat off of rents. In their time, many went off and carved a little piece out of the Commons. This didn't require them to go to some isolated ****hole, just past where others had carved their places.

Government and law allowed the amassing of huge land holdings, as only they can. Rent, except in the form of "Gerties boarding house for travelers" forms, is functionally a tax.

You make great points. I totally agree that we should have land/property rights at birth (enough for one to live off).

I actually started a post regarding population called "Population Control" (see link: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/108514-population-control-2.html#post1059800019), where I am interested in what people think about population and the right to property/land at birth (or at least that's where I am trying to take it - the OP was just simply whether or not population control should be started). I don't think we are there yet (hopefully we never will be), however, I am curious as to what people think about the right to property/land at birth (enough for one person to live off) ... I wonder how this would effect our view of overpopulation .. is there currently enough land for this to happen (i.e. for people to have land rights)?

Perhaps I should start a new poll ... hmmm
 
Another point ... Eight of 10 uninsured individuals come from families where there are working adults.

Almost half of all uninsured workers are either self-employed or work for companies with fewer than 25 employees. These numbers shatter one of the most common public misperceptions: that the uninsured are unemployed or choose not to work.

Those who choose not to work find systems to use. Sadly, the uninsured citizen is most likely a worker who is also not being paid a living wage or has chosen to start a business or works for a small business.

A Universal payor is the most efficient and uses healthcare $ for care ... however a public option with a choice for Americans between buying into the public option or buying corporate coverage would have offered a more competitive market and a solution.
 
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I am actually capable of providing my needs from the Commons. I am forbidden to do so because there are no Commons.

Can the commons provide sustenance for everyone?


Let me live in my RV.

Provide space near town, on transit, where people can pitch a tent/grab a cot, bathrooms with steel toilets and solar showers. Pass out transit passes. No excuse to be sleeping in doorways (see, side benefit).

If you don't want to pay for the use of the bathrooms and toilets, then who does pay to build them? Who pays for transit passes? These things are not "commons" they're actually state-provided services.

I think "the dole" should be cots in dorms with enough "Batchelor Chow" to provide basic nutrition and that's about it for the able bodied. Better for kids, situationally displaced etc.(I am liberal afterall).

I too like the barracks idea for people on the dole. Gives them a good incentive to get off the dole.

I kind of like your idea, because I like social experiment. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a city set aside 400 acres on the outskirts of town and let people come in and build their own toilets and showers and police themselves, etc and charge the transients just what was needed to pay for the buildings and sewer and water. It would be interesting to see what lessons we learned.
 
I am currently bound by no contract. I offered no one money to lay my head. I intend to sleep on public land. A park maybe.
Then you arent paying rent and/or you aren't using the term in its common form.
 
An affordable public option similar to medicare or Universal coverage is the only solution.
Statements like these are self-defeating.
These are the only solutiosn -- that you like -- not the only solutions.
 
For every problem, there is a final solution.

I think there are almost always several solutions, either used in combination with one another or individually that, if excuted correctly, can return a positive result when a problem exists. To say the "only solution" is single payer health care (which is far from perfect) or the "only solution" is to completely deregulate all aspects of medicine or any other stupid idea....that's just narrow minded and defeatist, IMO.
 
Ron Paul is living in a fantasy world. When people don't have health insurance and cannot afford their health treatment, they either get lucky and have someone else help them out or they die. Thousands of Americans die each year because they can't afford healthcare. This study found that uninsured Americans are 1.8 times as likely to die as insured ones:

http://www.pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insurance-and-mortality-in-US-adults.pdf

You do realize that people in countries with universal healthcare die too. And they die there too because of the quality and availability of healthcare albeit for different reasons than ours. We've manufactured another crisis in this country to force drastic measures in healthcare all for political reasons. Everything the government has done has made healthcare more expensive and less avalable to the public and it is only going to get worse when we have a universal healthcare system. We have a healthcare system that has amazing technology and treatments and gifted doctors and medical personnel. There is no way that a government can pay for everyone to have the highest level of care. Not possible. We had a perfect solution to help people get the basic care and catastrophic care they need through our existing Medicare and Medicade programs. There was absolutely no need to create an all emcompassing government healthcare system. Use the existing system, streamline it, make it more efficient, make sure it targets only the people who truly need the help, get rich people off the Medicare roles that can afford their own insurance and move on. But no, political factions are going to continue to play the have and have not game and screw it up for everyone. For some people If everyone in the country is not equally miserable or equally happy its all wrong and it all has to change. Then when that doesn't work, we have to change again.

Oh, and for the person who started this thread. Your entire premise was dishonest and another ridiculous exaggeration.
 
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I think there are almost always several solutions, either used in combination with one another or individually that, if excuted correctly, can return a positive result when a problem exists.
Yes. That was my point in my previous repsonse.
 
Jambalya said:

Oh, and for the person who started this thread. Your entire premise was dishonest and another ridiculous exaggeration.

If you mean I misunderstood what Paul said,I already apologized. If you mean the question is not worth asking, I disagree.
 
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