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Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

  1. #371
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    I am sorry, but I am not reading all these pages. However, I would like to see a link that Ron Paul claimed this. I have no problem with this claim, but I want to see context.

    Given our rising health care costs and limited resources, I personally wouldn't be opposed to the government stopping open heart surgery and other life savings operations for people over 80. It is unfortunate, but it is a sad part of life. Once you reach a certain age, the body starts breaking down. Using precious resources to keep someone alive for a few more years may not be worth it. Plus, you have to take into consideration the fact after life saving operations, these people will probably eat up more health care resources in the near future with existing or developing complications. I think those resources are best put to elsewhere.

    This touches upon the essence of economics. How do we allocate our limited resources in the most optimal way?

  2. #372
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    I personally wouldn't be opposed to the government stopping open heart surgery and other life savings operations for people over 80.
    I can guarantee you at 80 no one is getting a heart transplant.

    Using precious resources to keep someone alive for a few more years may not be worth it.
    So beyond getting a heart transplant, hearts are a very limited resource, what resource is wasted if an 80 year old gets 10 more years of life from bypass surgery or a stint or what ever.

    *the target goal for a heart transplant is 20 years of life.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I can guarantee you at 80 no one is getting a heart transplant.



    So beyond getting a heart transplant, hearts are a very limited resource, what resource is wasted if an 80 year old gets 10 more years of life from bypass surgery or a stint or what ever.

    *the target goal for a heart transplant is 20 years of life.
    I would like to see you validate your claim, but nonetheless you are simply nitpicking my statement in order to make your argument. My argument was never about open heart surgery for people over 80. It is about expensive life saving procedures the for elderly people which only prolong their lives for a couple of years. After you prolong their lives for a couple of years, then we bear the burden of the risk for more medical procedures while we keep these people alive.

    Is it really the government's job to see how long they can keep you alive after a certain age?

    While it is a noble endevour, we must think about how those resources would be put to better use.

  4. #374
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    I would like to see you validate your claim,
    Which claim? I happen to go to a transplant center myself.


    but nonetheless you are simply nitpicking my statement in order to make your argument. My argument was never about open heart surgery for people over 80. It is about expensive life saving procedures the for elderly people which only prolong their life for a couple of years. After you prolong their life for a couple of years, then we bear the burden of the risk for more medical procedures while we keep these people alive.
    Okay fair enough but it does beg the question what life saving procedures are you talking about?


    I can think of one such example with a 93k drug for prostrate (or was it pancreatic cancer?) cancer that extends life on average for 4 months. However if this yields insight into better pharmacology for future generations I'm all for it.
    *note you can get medicare before 65.


    Is it really the government's job to see how long they can keep you alive after a certain age?
    What's the cut off?

    While it is a noble endevour, we must think about how those resources would be put to better use.
    Noble? BS try being on this of the scaplel!
    Last edited by winston53660; 09-17-11 at 04:29 AM.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Which claim? I happen to go to a transplant center myself.
    And you are over the age of 80?

    Okay fair enough but it does beg the question what life saving procedures are you talking about?
    I am not talking about specifics, but I am referring to how resources are allocated.


    I can think of one such example with a 93k drug for prostrate (or was it pancreatic cancer?) cancer that extends life on average for 4 months. However if this yields insight into better pharmacology for future generations I'm all for it.
    *note you can get medicare before 65.
    I am all for drugs that enhance and prolong your life. Your point?

    What's the cut off?
    Its not up to me to decide. I am just pointing out that if the government decides to spend their resources on prolonging the life of the very old, then they are not going to have those resources to spend on other things, such as preventive health for the young, education, environment, etc.

    Noble? BS try being on this of the scaplel!
    I am glad that your survived the scalpel. However, this discussion is not about your personal anecdotes. It is about how government allocates its limited resources.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post

    Its not up to me to decide. I am just pointing out that if the government decides to spend their resources on prolonging the life of the very old, then they are not going to have those resources to spend on other things, such as preventive health for the young, education, environment, etc.

    .
    I'm all for education the environment and preventive health care for the young. One reason being is that some day they theme selves will be old.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    No, an 80 year old shouldn't have open heart surgery. Or any surgery for that matter. My great grandma had surgery in her 70s to repair a hernia and she spent the next 10 years of her life bedridden. Elderly people are extremely sensitive to sedation, and the results are often unpredictable and harmful. She went from being an active "pioneer" type lady to soiling herself, and being covered with bed sores. Why prolong someone's existence unnecessarily. What gain is there for anyone?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  8. #378
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    I would like to see you validate your claim, but nonetheless you are simply nitpicking my statement in order to make your argument. My argument was never about open heart surgery for people over 80. It is about expensive life saving procedures the for elderly people which only prolong their lives for a couple of years. After you prolong their lives for a couple of years, then we bear the burden of the risk for more medical procedures while we keep these people alive.

    Is it really the government's job to see how long they can keep you alive after a certain age?

    While it is a noble endevour, we must think about how those resources would be put to better use.
    Like continuing the last 30 years of tax breaks for the rich????
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Like continuing the last 30 years of tax breaks for the rich????
    I am not a fan of crony capitalism where the uber rich capture most, if not all, the productivity gains for the last four decades.

    You are barking up the wrong tree.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    I am not a fan of crony capitalism where the uber rich capture most, if not all, the productivity gains for the last four decades.

    You are barking up the wrong tree.
    What then is your purpose that is more noble then not letting the uninsured die?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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