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Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Which does not include preventative care which puts the patient at higher risk and ultimately results in higher costs for everyone.



    Show me any country with UHC that pays more for health care than the US.



    You are mistaken. 18,000 deaths blamed on lack of insurance



    Insurance companies ration health care too, that is why 50 million people can't afford health insurance. We have less access to fully health care for all our people than any other industrialized country.



    What choice do those who can't afford health insurance have for full health care?



    Hopefully not the way we have been rationing it, where only the rich have the option for receiving full health care. Talk with Bowerbird here about how well UHC works in Australia.
    37k people died from injuries sustained in car accidents List of motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    30k people die from gun shots List of motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3800 die from drowning

    13k die from falls

    2.59 million people die over all in the U.S.

    So .69% of the population die theoretically because of a lack of insurance. Though it seems to me like that would be hard to prove.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    37k people died from injuries sustained in car accidents List of motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    30k people die from gun shots List of motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3800 die from drowning

    13k die from falls

    2.59 million people die over all in the U.S.

    So .69% of the population die theoretically because of a lack of insurance. Though it seems to me like that would be hard to prove.

    Is this what is supposed to be your justification for letting the working class and poor die for lack of proper medical care in the richest country in the world????

    That is just sad. I hope you and your Dad are never subjected to the same fate as you wish on others.
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  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Which does not include preventative care which puts the patient at higher risk and ultimately results in higher costs for everyone.
    Preventive care is NOT an overall cost saver.

    Show me any country with UHC that pays more for health care than the US.
    I'm not arguing this, I know we pay the most. But a main reason for this is that not enough is rationed.

    I know people like to spin "lack of insurance" as a cause of death. It's still not. Insurancelessness is not a terminal condition.

    Insurance companies ration health care too, that is why 50 million people can't afford health insurance.
    You have that perfectly backwards. Rationing is not why people cannot afford it. Too little rationing is why they cannot afford it. Doing a better job of rationing would control costs (assuming a competitive market).

    What choice do those who can't afford health insurance have for full health care?
    None. Or at least they shouldn't. "Full health care" costs money and so does insurance. If you leave individuals alone to meet their own health care needs, they'll cost-discriminate and drive prices down. Overpriced services will perish because no one will (or can) pay for them. When you separate them from the cost of their care, they overutilize and underfund. "Who cares how much it costs, I don't have to pay it," they say.

    Hopefully not the way we have been rationing it, where only the rich have the option for receiving full health care.
    You dodged my question. How should we ration?

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Unrelated nonsense as a justification for one's opinion hardly counts as reasonable. I haven't decided on a position concerning health care yet, but so far the "let people die, it's not my problem" crowd hasn't been too convincing.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    How should we ration?
    I have some thoughts about this. It's a question we had best start discussing fast, or the "default position" will be pretty bad, IMO.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Preventive care is NOT an overall cost saver.

    Greater Use Of Preventive Services In U.S. Health Care Could Save Lives At Little Or No Cost


    I'm not arguing this, I know we pay the most. But a main reason for this is that not enough is rationed.
    We have rationing now through unaffordable rates for a large segment of the country.

    I know people like to spin "lack of insurance" as a cause of death. It's still not. Insurancelessness is not a terminal condition.
    Thanks for your opinion, but I will go with the landmark research that I referenced above which states:

    "The 193-page report, "Care Without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late," examines the plight of 30 million — one in seven — working-age Americans whose employers don't provide insurance and who don't qualify for government medical care.

    "Overall, the researchers say, 18,314 people die in the USA each year because they lack preventive services, a timely diagnosis or appropriate care."


    You have that perfectly backwards. Rationing is not why people cannot afford it. Too little rationing is why they cannot afford it. Doing a better job of rationing would control costs (assuming a competitive market).
    Our market system has failed to keep the cost down in health insurance. That is why every other industrialized country has switched to some form of UHC.


    "Full health care" costs money and so does insurance. If you leave individuals alone to meet their own health care needs, they'll cost-discriminate and drive prices down. Overpriced services will perish because no one will (or can) pay for them. When you separate them from the cost of their care, they overutilize and underfund. "Who cares how much it costs, I don't have to pay it," they say.
    It is not possible to meet your own health care costs in this country, unless you are rich. We are the richest country in the word, yet the only industrialized country that says we cannot provide UHC. I don't buy for one minute that we can't do for our citizens what poorer countries do on less. Australians have a small percentage taken from their paychecks to pay for it. If you want the Cadillac of health care plans, you pay a bit more. It is not free, it is just much less costly.

    How should we ration?
    One of the ways private insurance companies ration currently, by deciding what procedures are less likely to produce the best results, and providing less coverage for those procedures.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinkie View Post
    I have some thoughts about this. It's a question we had best start discussing fast, or the "default position" will be pretty bad, IMO.
    We already do ration. In the case of a heart transplant there are approximately 2500 transplants per year. And they are rationed out on various criteria.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Little to no additional cost is not the same as controlling costs.

    Preventive care won't magically cut health costs | Deseret News
    http://www.coverageforall.org/pdf/20...reMandates.pdf
    Will Preventive Care Control Costs? - Eric M. Staib - Mises Daily

    We have rationing now through unaffordable rates for a large segment of the country.
    That is not at all what rationing is.

    Our market system has failed to keep the cost down in health insurance.
    What has failed is the practice of providing expensive care to anybody and everybody.

    It is not possible to meet your own health care costs in this country, unless you are rich.
    But we meet everyone's health care costs anyway, which allows prices to rise. If the stuff that people couldn't afford didn't happen, then no one would stay in business offering unaffordable services. The only thing that will ever control costs sustainably in this industry is a cash only system.

    We are the richest country in the word, yet the only industrialized country that says we cannot provide UHC.
    We do provide universal health care. What we don't provide is universal health insurance under a single payer. Except for the Medicare population. And we all know how that's working out financially.

    I don't buy for one minute that we can't do for our citizens what poorer countries do on less. Australians have a small percentage taken from their paychecks to pay for it. If you want the Cadillac of health care plans, you pay a bit more.
    That's not correct. A percentage is taken from their paychecks, and then more is taken if they don't buy more of their own private insurance. And if they don't buy private insurance after they turn 31, they start dinging you with an extra 2% per year. So we can call this "universal" health care, but the ideals of government just paying for everything don't exist anywhere.

    As for it being all hunky dory in Australia, I really don't care. What's their debt to GDP? We're hurting enough financially as it is, and our unfunded liabilities are into the 50s of Trillions of dollars.

    I realize I'm not being "reasonable" on this issue, but I work in the industry and I've thought about it for a long time. Cash-only is the only thing I would strongly support. The cost problem in my type of scenario would be well taken care of.

    One of the ways private insurance companies ration currently, by deciding what procedures are less likely to produce the best results, and providing less coverage for those procedures.
    That's a start I guess.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 09-16-11 at 10:55 PM.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    I provided you with research from the Dept of Health and you offer up 3 conservative opinions to refute them. Sorry, I prefer facts to biased opinion.

    That is not at all what rationing is.
    The hell it isn't.

    What has failed is the practice of providing expensive care to anybody and everybody.
    So you prefer to be selective about who gets care and who doesn't. I'm not surprised.

    But we meet everyone's health care costs anyway, which allows prices to rise. If the stuff that people couldn't afford didn't happen, then no one would stay in business offering unaffordable services. The only thing that will ever control costs sustainably in this industry is a cash only system.
    You mean except for the 18,000 that die each year because they didn't get proper medical care? No thanks. In regards to your cash only system, I don't think many can afford to set aside a few hundred thousand dollars a year to cover possible medical costs. Doctors aren't accepting chickens in lieu of payment anymore.

    We do provide universal health care.
    Are you talking about Medicare that the conservatives want to get rid of?

    What we don't provide is universal health insurance under a single payer. Except for the Medicare population. And we all know how that's working out financially.
    Yes, it is working out the same as our private health insurance. Both are unaffordable, and for the same reason. The only way to solve the underlying problem of both is UHC.

    That's not correct. A percentage is taken from their paychecks, and then more is taken if they don't buy more of their own private insurance. And if they don't buy private insurance after they turn 31, they start dinging you with an extra 2% per year. So we can call this "universal" health care, but the ideals of government just paying for everything don't exist anywhere.
    You are incorrect, but there is no free lunch. Everyone has to pay, but with UHC, it is more affordable, because you remove the higher overhead and unnecessary profit from the picture.

    As for it being all hunky dory in Australia, I really don't care. What's their debt to GDP? We're hurting enough financially as it is, and our unfunded liabilities are into the 50s of Trillions of dollars.
    You don't care that Australia, a country not as rich as the US can provide what we can't? We are not hurting financially in relation to the rest of the world. We are still the richest country in the world. If other poorer countries can charge less for health care, so can we.

    I realize I'm not being "reasonable" on this issue, but I work in the industry and I've thought about it for a long time. Cash-only is the only thing I would strongly support. The cost problem in my type of scenario would be well taken care of.
    I also realize you are not being reasonable on this issue. Would you accept a chicken in lieu of a paycheck in your job in this industry??? If not, your plan is not practical in the least.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    We already do ration. In the case of a heart transplant there are approximately 2500 transplants per year. And they are rationed out on various criteria.
    I'm thinking more of nursing care. We cannot adequately staff nursing homes for the elderly infirm we have now. What is supposed to happen in 10,20, 30 years when that population has increased 500%?

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