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Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

  1. #341
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Then my first statement was correct. Human life isn't worth the value of health care, unless health care providers decide it is. I wonder if the same logic can be applied to other issues.
    MY response makes --no judgement whatsoever-- as to the value of anyone, and as such, YOUR response regarding such does not follow from what -I- said.
    And, I note, you have not in any was actually addressed my post as a response to your question.

    You clearly have no clue what "non sequitur" means.
    This is clearly not the case.

    Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe
    Why do you think your life is worth more than someone else's 2 days in a coal mine?
    Red herring.
    ROTFL
    The comparative value of life is YOUR argument. My question follows directly from YOUR premise.
    So... Why do you think your life is worth more than someone else's 2 days in a coal mine?

    How have I imposed anything? All I have done so far is pose a question which you have answered poorly.
    The whole idea of forcing people to pay for goods and services they do not receive is an imposition of (your) morality.

    Not even close.
    Thanks for your opinion.
    Last edited by PzKfW IVe; 09-16-11 at 04:43 PM.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Who paid for it?
    moot. 30 years ago, the survival rate for my moms stage of cancer was slim. she received better care, even though she is poor and uninsured.

    so comparing her plight with slaves is pathetic.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    [QUOTE=Neomalthusian;1059801147]
    UHC doesn't really change access, since we're all already treated upon arrival.
    Are your comparing emergency care with full health care? If there were no difference, we wouldn't have 18,000 people dying each year due to lack of health care.

    UHC doesn't control costs unless government starts seriously rationing.
    Yes, it does, as we have the most expensive health care of any of the industrialized nations, with the least access by all citizens.

    UHC is a great deal for those who pay least and have the worst health habits, and a terrible deal for those who pay most and live the healthiest lifestyles, so these are backwards incentives. And UHC does not allow people to decide if and how they would like to address their potential healthcare needs.
    Look at Australia's health care system. It disproves what you are saying.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    moot. 30 years ago, the survival rate for my moms stage of cancer was slim. she received better care, even though she is poor and uninsured.

    so comparing her plight with slaves is pathetic.
    What do you mean it is moot??? The whole discussion is around who pays for it. Who paid for it? Some of your fellow conservatives suggest that your mom was just dead weight and shouldn't have even received treatment, just as some of the southern states didn't believe slaves deserved to be treated as regular humans.
    Last edited by Catawba; 09-16-11 at 04:48 PM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What do you mean it is moot??? The whole discussion is around who pays for it. Who paid for it? Some of your fellow conservatives suggest that your mom was just dead weight and shouldn't have even received treatment, just some of the southern states didn't believe slaves deserved to be treated as regular humans.
    The discussion between you and I has nothing to do with who pays for it.

    Slaves were having basic human rights withheld. Slavery was going to come to an end, but it was not happening fast enough.

    Poor people in this country are receiving life saving health care – so good, that rich people 30 years ago couldn’t even fathom having it that good.

    So to claim the poor are not getting an improvement in health care fast enough –and we need to do something drastic like we did to rectify the plight of slaves is pathetic hyperbole.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
    The discussion between you and I has nothing to do with who pays for it.

    Slaves were having basic human rights withheld. Slavery was going to come to an end, but it was not happening fast enough.

    Poor people in this country are receiving life saving health care – so good, that rich people 30 years ago couldn’t even fathom having it that good.

    So to claim the poor are not getting an improvement in health care fast enough –and we need to do something drastic like we did to rectify the plight of slaves is pathetic hyperbole.
    This a public forum, we aren't having a private discussion. I maintain that health care is a basic human right. What do you think about some of your fellow conservative's opinions here that your Mom was just dead weight and should not have been given treatment?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba
    Are your comparing emergency care with full health care?
    No, hospital care. The uninsured are treated throughout hospitals. Whatever their medical need. Not just ERs. That's "do no harm" for you.

    And they'd still hit up the ER with public coverage. ERs find answers quick, whereas clinic doctors can have long waitlists. And we could only expect as much or more of that with UHC.

    If there were no difference, we wouldn't have 18,000 people dying each year due to lack of health care.
    That's not why they die. People die due to injuries or medical problems. "Lack of health care" is not a cause of death.

    Yes, it does, as we have the most expensive health care of any of the industrialized nations, with the least access by all citizens.
    Ignores my point. A government can only control costs by rationing in some fashion or another. If it doesn't ration, costs can float as high as they want to.

    So ASSUMING we go ahead and destroy choice and socialize the whole system, the question will become about how government will ration, or how quickly it'll destroy our financial going concern trying NOT to.

    So how shall we ration? What care shall be denied, and to whom? We gotta answer this at some point.

    Look at Australia's health care system. It disproves what you are saying.
    No it doesn't. We could spend all month discussing the myriad differences between the US and country x, y or z.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 09-16-11 at 05:05 PM.

  8. #348
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    MY response makes --no judgement whatsoever-- as to the value of anyone, and as such, YOUR response regarding such does not follow from what -I- said.
    And, I note, you have not in any was actually addressed my post as a response to your question.
    You seem to be confused. My original question WAS about a value judgment. I guess you still haven't answered the question then.

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    This is clearly not the case.


    ROTFL
    The comparative value of life is YOUR argument. My question follows directly from YOUR premise.
    So... Why do you think your life is worth more than someone else's 2 days in a coal mine?
    repeating a red herring? lol btw, we're not talking about MY life, or a coal mine.


    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    The whole idea of forcing people to pay for goods and services they do not receive is an imposition of (your) morality.
    Once again, I have imposed nothing. I -am-posing-an-ethical-question.


    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Thanks for your opinion.
    yeah-you have a nice day now.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    This a public forum, we aren't having a private discussion.
    Public means others can read and respond, but our conversation has nothing to do with what others said previously.

    I maintain that health care is a basic human right. What do you think about some of your fellow conservative's opinions here that your Mom was just dead weight and should not have been given treatment?
    They need to see a bigger picture of what people provide. My mom received her care in a teaching hospital, so she isn’t dead weight, she provided valuable practical experience

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    You seem to be confused. My original question WAS about a value judgment. I guess you still haven't answered the question then.

    repeating a red herring? lol btw, we're not talking about MY life, or a coal mine.

    Once again, I have imposed nothing. I -am-posing-an-ethical-question.

    yeah-you have a nice day now.
    You were doing so well. Not so much any more.

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