Page 27 of 38 FirstFirst ... 17252627282937 ... LastLast
Results 261 to 270 of 380

Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

  1. #261
    Sage
    RiverDad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    04-20-14 @ 02:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    5,039

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Government should be limited to protecting my rights to life, liberty, and dominion over the land as far as the eye can see. Its currently defined as property, but the Lockean concept of property was limited to what one could actually personally use, not charge those who came later forever because their ancestors got somewhere first.

    Don't tell me you're totally ignorant of the concept of the Commons.

    Or that rents devolve from government enforced property rights. At one point they did. You rented someones nice house instead of living in a tent outside town or whatever because you CHOSE to do so. Not because the sheriff comes and takes you to jail for vagrancy.
    I know quite a bit about the theory of the Commons, the Tragedy of the Commons and principles like the Common Heritage of Mankind.

    What I don't know is how you structure a society where, I take it, you get to live in an apartment somewhere that magically exists and doesn't require you to pay rent. That's got me as curious as all get out.

  2. #262
    Educator

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Last Seen
    08-15-13 @ 01:41 AM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    1,034

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I know quite a bit about the theory of the Commons, the Tragedy of the Commons and principles like the Common Heritage of Mankind.

    What I don't know is how you structure a society where, I take it, you get to live in an apartment somewhere that magically exists and doesn't require you to pay rent. That's got me as curious as all get out.
    So how does the right to life, liberty and land require someone else to pay for someone's rent again? I must have missed that point.

    If equal opportunity existed (equal opportunity, not equal outcome), people had rights to land at birth, there was population control, there was a security net (welfare) system that encouraged people to get off that system, along with requiring living wages and no outsourcing .. I don't think paying someone elses rent would be a problem.
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 09-16-11 at 02:21 AM.

  3. #263
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Last Seen
    01-05-17 @ 02:11 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    1,479

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire X View Post
    Ron Paul is living in a fantasy world. When people don't have health insurance and cannot afford their health treatment, they either get lucky and have someone else help them out or they die. Thousands of Americans die each year because they can't afford healthcare. This study found that uninsured Americans are 1.8 times as likely to die as insured ones:

    http://www.pnhp.org/excessdeaths/hea...-US-adults.pdf
    An affordable public option similar to medicare or Universal coverage is the only solution.

    Honest working people are dying because they cannot afford healthcare and tax payers are over burdened with many fraudulently using some systems. A public option would have brought real competition in payors or a Universal payor that people pay for ... is the only answer.

    Ron Paul's stand on this issue is pure foolishness. In a church congregation of 2000 ... if 12 uninsured a year have a health care crisis we are talking millions of dollars to cover their bills.

    HCR requiring citizens be insured and offering an affordable public option was the only hope and a move towards Universal.

    Obama was right on target with his initial HCR ... and yes I read the legislation. We have legislation requiring we provide care ... and there fore we need to have an affordable option for citizens. I can afford my 2000$ premium for my family as my employer pays for part of this premium.

    http://www.emtala.com/

    The above legislation is the only moral answer ... yet our public servants have failed us by not providing a solution that requires that Americans be responsible and be insured and that there is affordable insurance for citizens. ...and yea .. that goes along with a living wage.
    another caveat to this discussion is that is roadblocks jobs ... as many americans who would like to start a business stay in dead end jobs for the insurance coverage ... and many companies mover operations to countries that have Universal coverage.
    Last edited by Turin; 09-16-11 at 03:05 AM.

  4. #264
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:39 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    12,459
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I know quite a bit about the theory of the Commons, the Tragedy of the Commons and principles like the Common Heritage of Mankind.

    What I don't know is how you structure a society where, I take it, you get to live in an apartment somewhere that magically exists and doesn't require you to pay rent. That's got me as curious as all get out.
    I am actually capable of providing my needs from the Commons. I am forbidden to do so because there are no Commons.

    Its not an alien concept that private property has exceeded the intents of the founders. They lived in a wide open world, but they came from one where the landed classes lived fat off of rents. In their time, many went off and carved a little piece out of the Commons. This didn't require them to go to some isolated ****hole, just past where others had carved their places.

    Government and law allowed the amassing of huge land holdings, as only they can. Rent, except in the form of "Gerties boarding house for travelers" forms, is functionally a tax.

    Imagine it this way. Simplified, but accurate to a large degree.

    My dad and your dad race up the last hill to a new valley.

    Your dad gets there first. Yells "Mine", and gets to charge my dad and all his descendents 25% of everything they produce forever.

    Please don't cherry pick this example to death.

    My point is that MOST of the things you would like to change, and those I would like to change, are subject to change because they are made up.

    Nobody HAS any rights. They are a product of society and the states.

    I think everybody thinks a right to property is appropriate.

    I don't think everybody thinks an UNLIMITED right to property is appropriate.

    I don't think MOST people do.

    Perhaps some potential "solutions" to the "problem" of rents as they currently exist would be helpful. These are "mine" so can't be sourced.

    Let me live in my RV.

    Provide space near town, on transit, where people can pitch a tent/grab a cot, bathrooms with steel toilets and solar showers. Pass out transit passes. No excuse to be sleeping in doorways (see, side benefit).

    I think "the dole" should be cots in dorms with enough "Batchelor Chow" to provide basic nutrition and that's about it for the able bodied. Better for kids, situationally displaced etc.(I am liberal afterall).

    All of these thing I feel would provide a large net benefit at a reasonable cost, without encouraging dependency.

    All of the above return rent to a non-coercive form, as alternatives are available. Synthetic Commons, if you will. Mechanisms to replace their function in a crowded world.

    Instead of sayin', too bad so sad, shoulda been born sooner. Or whatever.

    Consider:

    College kids could save a crapload of money.

    Families who see sudden losses of industry in their area can move to a new place BEFORE they're almost bankrupt.

    The homeless have a place to be, so they got no excuse to be sleeping in thei own piss in peoples doorways. And who knows how their paradigms might change, what opportunities they might encounter in some model like this.

    Its something I've thought about quite a bit. That sleeping has been privatised, and nobody seems to notice. That people cough up 25% of their gross or more to landlords, every month. That a program designed to get some of these people off of this treadmill was used and abused to the point where it almost crashed the economy. And the widespread fraud the FBI expressed concerning these programs was estimated to be 80% on the part of LENDERS, but the meme that survived was that it was caused by the 20% that comprised customers.

    I lived outlaw in my rv for a year as an experiment. We are back indoors now because we choose to be.

    Our total housing expenses during that year? Utilities and all?

    $300/mo.

    In San Diego CA.

    Moving the rig daily and never sleeping in the same place more than once a month or so. So most of that was fuel.

    We had a bed, a kitchen, a bath with shower, a seating area. Etc. Everything everybody has in a house, just smaller. Gas for cooking, refrig was maybe $10 month.

    The differential between "normal" cost of living and what we paid was simply ridiculous. Damn near criminal.

    We were literally saving over a grand a month, best as we could estimate. Compared to a house or apartment of roughly adjusted size, and we have pets.

    A thousand dollars a month to be in compliance with the law. A thousand dollars a month that would have gone into a landlords pocket, every month, forever.

    So 80% of rent is "markup" more or less, and that don't seem like a free market price.

    Some kind of Synthetic Commons would certainly exert downward pressure, by removing coercion from the equation.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  5. #265
    Educator

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Last Seen
    08-15-13 @ 01:41 AM
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    1,034

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I am actually capable of providing my needs from the Commons. I am forbidden to do so because there are no Commons.

    Its not an alien concept that private property has exceeded the intents of the founders. They lived in a wide open world, but they came from one where the landed classes lived fat off of rents. In their time, many went off and carved a little piece out of the Commons. This didn't require them to go to some isolated ****hole, just past where others had carved their places.

    Government and law allowed the amassing of huge land holdings, as only they can. Rent, except in the form of "Gerties boarding house for travelers" forms, is functionally a tax.
    You make great points. I totally agree that we should have land/property rights at birth (enough for one to live off).

    I actually started a post regarding population called "Population Control" (see link: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1059800019), where I am interested in what people think about population and the right to property/land at birth (or at least that's where I am trying to take it - the OP was just simply whether or not population control should be started). I don't think we are there yet (hopefully we never will be), however, I am curious as to what people think about the right to property/land at birth (enough for one person to live off) ... I wonder how this would effect our view of overpopulation .. is there currently enough land for this to happen (i.e. for people to have land rights)?

    Perhaps I should start a new poll ... hmmm

  6. #266
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Last Seen
    01-05-17 @ 02:11 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    1,479

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Another point ... Eight of 10 uninsured individuals come from families where there are working adults.

    Almost half of all uninsured workers are either self-employed or work for companies with fewer than 25 employees. These numbers shatter one of the most common public misperceptions: that the uninsured are unemployed or choose not to work.

    Those who choose not to work find systems to use. Sadly, the uninsured citizen is most likely a worker who is also not being paid a living wage or has chosen to start a business or works for a small business.

    A Universal payor is the most efficient and uses healthcare $ for care ... however a public option with a choice for Americans between buying into the public option or buying corporate coverage would have offered a more competitive market and a solution.
    Last edited by Turin; 09-16-11 at 03:59 AM.

  7. #267
    Sage
    RiverDad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    04-20-14 @ 02:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    5,039

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I am actually capable of providing my needs from the Commons. I am forbidden to do so because there are no Commons.
    Can the commons provide sustenance for everyone?


    Let me live in my RV.

    Provide space near town, on transit, where people can pitch a tent/grab a cot, bathrooms with steel toilets and solar showers. Pass out transit passes. No excuse to be sleeping in doorways (see, side benefit).
    If you don't want to pay for the use of the bathrooms and toilets, then who does pay to build them? Who pays for transit passes? These things are not "commons" they're actually state-provided services.

    I think "the dole" should be cots in dorms with enough "Batchelor Chow" to provide basic nutrition and that's about it for the able bodied. Better for kids, situationally displaced etc.(I am liberal afterall).
    I too like the barracks idea for people on the dole. Gives them a good incentive to get off the dole.

    I kind of like your idea, because I like social experiment. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a city set aside 400 acres on the outskirts of town and let people come in and build their own toilets and showers and police themselves, etc and charge the transients just what was needed to pay for the buildings and sewer and water. It would be interesting to see what lessons we learned.

  8. #268
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    10-16-11 @ 03:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    1,845

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    I am currently bound by no contract. I offered no one money to lay my head. I intend to sleep on public land. A park maybe.
    Then you arent paying rent and/or you aren't using the term in its common form.

  9. #269
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Seen
    10-16-11 @ 03:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    1,845

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    An affordable public option similar to medicare or Universal coverage is the only solution.
    Statements like these are self-defeating.
    These are the only solutiosn -- that you like -- not the only solutions.

  10. #270
    Bring us a shrubbery!
    tessaesque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Last Seen
    11-09-17 @ 06:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    15,910

    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Nothing is the "only solution".
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


Page 27 of 38 FirstFirst ... 17252627282937 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •