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Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

  1. #251
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    coming from a Country that has a working UHC scheme, i don't understand such anger and animosity at the thought of the government having some control over your health care. it's not like what you have now is working or anything special.

    do you understand that while you have been so hell bent on shouting down the public option, all you have been doing is lobbying to keep pouring money into the pockets of insurance companies who have been the ones rationing healthcare today. the health insurance companies do not care about you. if they did they would not focus so much of their time trying to get out of paying claims and compromising yours and your families health while premiums keep increasing.

    at the end of the day, it's really not much good having some of the best health care facilities and Doctors in the world (which the US do), if people don't have access to it in a timely and afforable manner.
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  2. #252
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    But I AM forced to pay rent. Sorry to keep using the obvious example of a coercive force being used to force someone to buy something they don't want to buy. But you guys think THAT one is perfectly ok.
    I've asked you before and I'm doing it again - make a case for your complaint. I don't understand what's eating you.

    If you don't want to pay rent then you don't have to. I do believe that you can go and live in Alaska, out on Federal land so far from any Ranger station that no one will bother you and try to collect money from you. If that's a little too independent for you there are shelters for homeless people in most cities and towns and they don't change people rent. Then there is the Matt Foley Plan - living in a van down by the river. There are also a lot of people in the US who live without paying rent - they drive their RVs from city to city and they park overnight in WalMart parking lots and such and then move on come morning.

    So it's possible for you to avoid paying rent. Now, if I build a house and want to rent it out, why would I want to let people live in that house for free? Houses and apartments don't just magically appear from nowhere - someone is putting their resources towards building and maintaining these units. If they had to let people live in them for free then they wouldn't build them in the first place.

    I'm just not understanding what you're going on about.

  3. #253
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    And I've never met a scientist who refuses to work for an employer because it wont result in the enrichment of a stockholder.
    Well, I know lots of scientists who refuse to work for an employer who gives them a rock, a stump to sit on, and a stick to draw in the dirt with, and then declares that we wants the scientist to devise an improvement on an MRI machine or what have you.

    All the scientists I know in private industry and academia actually like to use specialized tools and like to work in specialized facilities and the money for all of that infrastructure has to come from somewhere as does the money for all the salary and benefits that flow to the scientists regardless of whether products are successful and while they're still in the research and development phase.

    All the scientists I know don't really care that much about how much their employers are making off of their labor so long as they feel that they're fairly compensated for their work.

  4. #254
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Shoot the entire society? That would be the "hostage" in this example.
    Sorry that you didn't get the reference. For those of us that did, it was rather funny.

  5. #255
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Sorry that you didn't get the reference. For those of us that did, it was rather funny.
    What was the reference? I love a good joke as much as the next guy.
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  6. #256
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Wrong. Absolutely.
    Really.
    Please show how your response flows logically from what I said in the post you responded to.
    Before you further embarass yourself, you should probably go back and read what that post said.

    Wrong again.
    I am -absolutely- correct.

    Refusing to treat someone because they cannot pay is putting the value of money over or equal to the value of their life. It's a logical conclusion following your original statement.
    You clearly do not understand the point.
    No... not the value of money... but the value of the time and effort that the person who is paying for the goods and services he did not receive expended in order to cover the costs of your medical care, and his right to retain these things for his own use. After all, HE earned it; you did not.
    You're arguing that your right supercedes his, and so he should pay for your medical treatment.

    Still wrong. i addressed every point in your post.
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  7. #257
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    But I AM forced to pay rent.
    You chose to enter a contract with someone that specifically states you will compensate that someone for your use of his property.
    Show how that is at all a similar situation.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    What was the reference? I love a good joke as much as the next guy.
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  9. #259
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I've asked you before and I'm doing it again - make a case for your complaint. I don't understand what's eating you.

    If you don't want to pay rent then you don't have to. I do believe that you can go and live in Alaska, out on Federal land so far from any Ranger station that no one will bother you and try to collect money from you. If that's a little too independent for you there are shelters for homeless people in most cities and towns and they don't change people rent. Then there is the Matt Foley Plan - living in a van down by the river. There are also a lot of people in the US who live without paying rent - they drive their RVs from city to city and they park overnight in WalMart parking lots and such and then move on come morning.

    So it's possible for you to avoid paying rent. Now, if I build a house and want to rent it out, why would I want to let people live in that house for free? Houses and apartments don't just magically appear from nowhere - someone is putting their resources towards building and maintaining these units. If they had to let people live in them for free then they wouldn't build them in the first place.

    I'm just not understanding what you're going on about.
    The key word is avoid.

    Legally, if you want to live where anything is, you are required to pay rent. A result of the enclosing of the Commons. A practice dating from around the 14th century in europe. When kings declared all the dirt their "property". The whole map. Then passed it out to their cronies to garner their support. Like most of the country was doled out to cronies and con men.

    This is the primary glitch in various forms of libertarian thinking. Government is bad except when it is aiding me in controlling more of the Commons than I could on my own. Then its the bee's knees!

    Government should be limited to protecting my rights to life, liberty, and dominion over the land as far as the eye can see. Its currently defined as property, but the Lockean concept of property was limited to what one could actually personally use, not charge those who came later forever because their ancestors got somewhere first.

    Don't tell me you're totally ignorant of the concept of the Commons.

    Or that rents devolve from government enforced property rights. At one point they did. You rented someones nice house instead of living in a tent outside town or whatever because you CHOSE to do so. Not because the sheriff comes and takes you to jail for vagrancy.

    My point is that refusal to address ALL forms of coercion that result in involuntary redistribution of wealth is indicative of picking and chossing what forms of coercion you support and which you defend. Which is NOT the position most of those arguing as you do take. Rent is functionally a TAX levied by owners of property on those who don't, enforced by government.

    Move to the middle of nowhere doesn't remove the coercive nature, it demonstrates it. And wilderness passes are required everywhere to camp. Eating off the land is technically illegal as well to a degree that one could actually survive on.

    Not all wal-marts allow overnighting, and when they do its one night. Rvs eat a lot of gas. Its the equivalent of being required to move your entire herd to a whole different valley everyday til the train gets in.

    Its not complicated, but it is amazing how many people find it so. The problem is that its totally made up and subject to revision like all the things the right hates so much, but because they like that part, they actually can't allow themselves to "see" it because the cognitive dissonance would be too great.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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  10. #260
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    You chose to enter a contract with someone that specifically states you will compensate that someone for your use of his property.
    Show how that is at all a similar situation.
    I am currently bound by no contract. I offered no one money to lay my head. I intend to sleep on public land. A park maybe.

    Try again, this amuses the hell out of me.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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