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Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

  1. #241
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Shoot the hostage - take him out of the equation.
    Shoot the entire society? That would be the "hostage" in this example.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I would say I need some sort of studies for that. Because I believe a large part of the cost problem is the fact that we allow patent law to side with BigPharm. I question the profit issue for health care providers for the simple fact that many hospitals have to rely on charity and grants to stay afloat. We should stop treating medicine like a golden calf and start treating it like business. As I said before, there are plenty of means of changing the face of medicine without putting everybody further into financial strain to do it. Or at least without doing it first.
    Well, I would consider the whole patent issue a problem cause by the profit motive at base, although the government does let them get away with it. Here's something you might find interesting, though:
    Medicare vs. Non-Government (Private) Health Insurance - Health Care Reform - ProCon.org
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

  3. #243
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    So basically Aussie has a taxed system to pay for Universal health care to cover everyone...and if you have the money to pay for cadillac private care you can....isnt that the same for any country that has universal healthcare....if your rich you can use a paid private system ?
    you don't have to be rich to use the private system. a family cover can cost you around $50.00 per week and a single person can obtain cover for around $25 per week.
    Why do we fall?
    So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    you don't have to be rich to use the private system. a family cover can cost you around $50.00 per week and a single person can obtain cover for around $25 per week.
    that's interesting; i always wondered what the private plans looked like in nations with UHC.

    in the US, my current group rate for a single male is $70 a week. were i to COBRA it, it would be $140 a week, or around $560 a month. granted, i have health care that actually covers health care expenses. many of the cheaper plans nickle and dime you and set up a maze that you have to navigate to not be denied coverage. and even if you're good at mazes, the coverage often sucks. the best bet is to buy the most expensive plan offered, unless you want to play the casino game and try to scrape by with minimal or no coverage. i would not advise that.

    overall, plan premiums are going up by 20 percent a year on the low end and much faster in some places. wages are stagnant. it's unsustainable.

  5. #245
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    From the post you responded to? Yes. Absolutely. No way to argue otherwise.
    Wrong. Absolutely.


    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    -You- brought up the idea of judging the value of on person over another. I merely applied what you said to the 'must provide treatment' argument, which does exactly that. Thus, it was NOT a non sequitur from YOUR response.
    Wrong again. Refusing to treat someone because they cannot pay is putting the value of money over or equal to the value of their life. It's a logical conclusion following your original statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    And... you have STILL not responded to the actual point I made in my post - thus, you continue the red herring.
    Still wrong. i addressed every point in your post.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  6. #246
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Access doesn't solve the problem of cost. Arbitrarily setting prices doesn't solve the problem of cost. UHC does not solve the problem of cost. Introducing a tax that would pay for everybody to have "free" healthcare coverage would cause more problems right now.

    You want to fix the problems? Do it the right way. Fix what's broken with the rest of the system before you put a bunch of people who, by the left's general definition, are "barely getting by" on the hook to pay for it.
    Most of what's broke with our health care system is allowing unregulated profit on health care in the private system. All the countries that have UHC have lower costs than our private system. How would paying less for UHC than we currently pay for private health care hurt our economy?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    No one should - no one CAN - be forced to buy good or services of any kind as a basic requirement of citizenship.
    But I AM forced to pay rent. Sorry to keep using the obvious example of a coercive force being used to force someone to buy something they don't want to buy. But you guys think THAT one is perfectly ok.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Right. Because making money is obviously a higher goal than saving children.
    Making money is THE highest goal.

    HAIL MAMMON!!11!!1
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Access doesn't solve the problem of cost. Arbitrarily setting prices doesn't solve the problem of cost. UHC does not solve the problem of cost. Introducing a tax that would pay for everybody to have "free" healthcare coverage would cause more problems right now.

    You want to fix the problems? Do it the right way. Fix what's broken with the rest of the system before you put a bunch of people who, by the left's general definition, are "barely getting by" on the hook to pay for it.
    Imagine if you will, a world where mri's and drugs are developed by scientists, for the same salary and the same "stake" in what they develop for a for-profit employer (none).

    I promise you that $700 per MRI cost would come WAY DOWN.

    And I've never met a scientist who refuses to work for an employer because it wont result in the enrichment of a stockholder.

    Way too much of medical expense is captive markets and marketing.

    The percentage of "bringing a new drug to market" that goes to marketing ALONE will shock those who blindly support for-profit medicine.

    Or not. If this thread is any indicator, most will simply not see anything that goes off-message.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Yeah, well, today's America sure as **** couldn't muster the political will to go to the moon.
    True dat, true dat.

    Now I has a sad!
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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