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Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

  1. #231
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We already have rationed care and limited access to health care. What the statistics show is that more people have access to health care under UHC.
    Access doesn't solve the problem of cost. Arbitrarily setting prices doesn't solve the problem of cost. UHC does not solve the problem of cost. Introducing a tax that would pay for everybody to have "free" healthcare coverage would cause more problems right now.

    You want to fix the problems? Do it the right way. Fix what's broken with the rest of the system before you put a bunch of people who, by the left's general definition, are "barely getting by" on the hook to pay for it.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And for less money. Some people seem to think that transferring all health care insurance to the private sector is going to save them money, when in fact it will just make it more expensive for everyone by adding increased administration cost and profit.

    It will only make health care even more expensive than it already is. I fail to see how this would be an improvement.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by KaptainKraK View Post
    I agree with tessaesque, Ron Paul did not say this, I believe that if your going to start a debate, start it with a true question like....
    Do you agree with the audience of the debate, on whether we should deny life-saving medical care to the uninsured?
    Let's make sure we're clear, here: The question was about a healthy, prosperous young guy who voluntarily CHOOSES not to purchase health insurance:

    “A healthy, 30-year-old young man has a good job, makes a good living, but decides: You know what? I'm not going to spend 200 or 300 dollars a month for health insurance, because I'm healthy; I don't need it,” Blitzer said. “But you know, something terrible happens; all of a sudden, he needs it. Who's going to pay for it, if he goes into a coma, for example? Who pays for that?"

    “In a society that you accept welfarism and socialism, he expects the government to take care of him,” Paul replied. Blitzer asked what Paul would prefer to having government deal with the sick man.

    “What he should do is whatever he wants to do, and assume responsibility for himself,” Paul said. ”My advice to him would have a major medical policy, but not before —"

    “But he doesn't have that,” Blitzer said. “He doesn't have it and he's — and he needs — he needs intensive care for six months. Who pays?”

    “That's what freedom is all about: taking your own risks.,” Paul said, repeating the standard libertarian view as some in the audience cheered.

    “But congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die,” Blitzer asked.

    “Yeah,” came the shout from the audience.
    Be in general virtuous, and you will be happy. -- Benjamin Franklin

  4. #234
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Access doesn't solve the problem of cost. Arbitrarily setting prices doesn't solve the problem of cost. UHC does not solve the problem of cost. Introducing a tax that would pay for everybody to have "free" healthcare coverage would cause more problems right now.

    You want to fix the problems? Do it the right way. Fix what's broken with the rest of the system before you put a bunch of people who, by the left's general definition, are "barely getting by" on the hook to pay for it.
    Most of the problems with cost in our current system are a direct result of it being private sector. This is one of those situations where the profit motive is a bad thing, not a good thing. Everyone along the line wants as much of that juicy wealth as possible, so when your money finally actually gets to treating you, there's not a whole lot of it left.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    As I said, it's hard to define. Yes, it's preventative care. No, it's not elective surgery and procedures. Basically, you have a certain amount of money to spend on health care. Someone's going to have to make a system for determining who gets what treatments based on the cost, the severity of the condition, how old the patient is, how common the condition is, and so on. Enough is basically the best we can reasonably do at any given time.
    The amount of waste that can be prevented with basic preventative care makes it worth doing. If that's ALL it was.

    The idea we can go to the moon but can't come up with some hybrid solution to the problem is ****ing pathetic.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Most of the problems with cost in our current system are a direct result of it being private sector. This is one of those situations where the profit motive is a bad thing, not a good thing. Everyone along the line wants as much of that juicy wealth as possible, so when your money finally actually gets to treating you, there's not a whole lot of it left.
    I would say I need some sort of studies for that. Because I believe a large part of the cost problem is the fact that we allow patent law to side with BigPharm. I question the profit issue for health care providers for the simple fact that many hospitals have to rely on charity and grants to stay afloat. We should stop treating medicine like a golden calf and start treating it like business. As I said before, there are plenty of means of changing the face of medicine without putting everybody further into financial strain to do it. Or at least without doing it first.
    Last edited by tessaesque; 09-15-11 at 09:05 PM.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    The amount of waste that can be prevented with basic preventative care makes it worth doing. If that's ALL it was.

    The idea we can go to the moon but can't come up with some hybrid solution to the problem is ****ing pathetic.
    Yeah, well, today's America sure as **** couldn't muster the political will to go to the moon.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    So basically Aussie has a taxed system to pay for Universal health care to cover everyone...and if you have the money to pay for cadillac private care you can....isnt that the same for any country that has universal healthcare....if your rich you can use a paid private system ?
    I don't believe so. Iirc. Many forbid for profit healthcare. Doesn't mean we can't have a hybrid system. Just means the for profit sector wont make as much money because they lose the "pay us or die" factor they enjoy now.
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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    If you ask me, I would not want to live in a society that denies people medication and treatment, when the resources are there, just in the wrong hands.

    Neither would I want to live in a society that connects one's access to health care to your respective financial wealth.

    Such a society is barbaric.

    And I can't help but go Godwin on the "natural selection" remark, in case it was not made tongue in cheek: That's a social darwinistic kind of argumentation. The lapse from turning a descriptive observation in nature into a normative statement. Just because something is like this or that in the realm of animals, it doesn't mean it's ethically sound to model human society after this principle. In fact, it is even evil in most cases. I believe humans should hold themselves to a higher yardstick than animals.
    Last edited by German guy; 09-15-11 at 09:08 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    so, again,, explain how the "haves" helping the "have nots" does anything for the COMMON good.
    It saves money that would have to be spent preventing the have nots from eating the haves.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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