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Thread: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Is that a question or a statement? I cannot tell, because it doesnt stem directly from anything I said.
    Maybe you could show a little honesty and ask a question that doesn't suppose someting about my position.
    No need to get defensive. I was just asking.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Because he has no intention of living with a diminished quality of life. Watching several people waste away and die in pain did quite a number on him and he doesn't want it for himself. He's made it pretty clear he won't stay around for long once things start to decline.
    people have treatable diseases that once treated do not diminish quality of life. people get cancer and are cured with no diminished quality of life. good god, he's only 47.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Non sequitur, red herring.
    You may want to look up those words, and reapply logic. When denying someone treatment which can save their life because they do not have money or insurance coverage, it naturally follows that the value of their life is equal to the monetary value of the treatment needed to keep them alive. Also, one cannot separate the question posed in the OP from an ethical discussion. So-you're wrong on both accounts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You're pulling that out of your ass. People are hospitalized when it's medically necessary and discharged when it's no longer medically necessary. If you're going to claim the same doctors in hospitals discriminate on the basis of funding source, you've got a big claim to support.
    Not really. Patient dumping is a well documented phenomenon. Try googling it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I assure you it does not. Read the link.
    I only just noticed your link since you later edited your post.

    However, as I said, if preventative care is low cost and not abused, it can reduce costs.

    There are variables to consider here: how much it costs to administer the preventive measure, how effective the preventive measure is in preventing the condition, whether preventing the condition results in the patient surviving longer, thus having even more time to consume healthcare resources for other medical conditions. OF COURSE, allowing sick people to die is a cheaper option. Not treating people with costly conditions to begin with is also cheaper. But this is where we run into ethical issues.

    Apparently, many people in this thread find such a discussion to be a "red herring." My, how they'd change their minds if their health problems and lives were in question. So often, people only apply their "ubermensch" mentalities to others. Of course, people with that mentality are either healthy at the time, or do not yet realize their own need for care.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I'm sorry, but we don't need to give congress power beyond that provided to them by the consitution to mandate the sale of a product until we look at every other option. Forcing a product on to somebody because it seems like a magical cure-all....isn't. On my MRI, the insurance paid the hospital $80. The billed price of the MRI was $700. I paid nothing. So where'd the other $620 go? On the backs of other patients? Onto the government? Out of the hospital's pockets? The system is inherently flawed. Universal coverage or mandated insurance don't fix the flaws. It's like putting a bandaid over a severed limb. You think even with insurance that my dad could cover his portion of a bypass surgery? That'd be several thousand dollars, if not several tens of thousands of dollars.
    Medical costs are driven up in large part -because- of the insulation of the consumer from the true cost of the goods/services he receives.
    -Eliminating- 3rd-party payment will reduce costs and improve quality of care by forcing providers to compete for the pool of customers who only have $X to spend.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    You may want to look up those words, and reapply logic. When denying someone treatment which can save their life because they do not have money or insurance coverage, it naturally follows that the value of their life is equal to the monetary value of the treatment needed to keep them alive.
    No. It doesn't. There's no judgement whatsoever on the value of the person in question in the post you responded to, and thus, non sequitur.

    However....It DOES naturally follow that by forcing others to prvovide medical treatment to somoene who cannot pay, that the life of that someone -is- more valuable than the labor that produced the wealth that is then taken to provide for that same someone.
    So... According to you...the life of person who cannot pay > the right of someone else to retain the fruits of their labor.
    Please - support that position.

    Also, one cannot separate the question posed in the OP from an ethical discussion. So-you're wrong on both accounts.
    I am wrong on neither.
    You are trying to discuss a position of a judgement of value of a person in respose to a post that you did not otherwise address in an effort to avoid the substance of said post - which you have still not addressed. Thus, red herring.
    Last edited by PzKfW IVe; 09-15-11 at 04:41 PM.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    No need to get defensive. I was just asking.
    So much for the honesty.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    So much for the honesty.
    Why won't you answer the question?

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    No. It doesn't. There's no judgement whatsoever on the value of the person in question in the post you responded to, and thus, non sequitur.

    However....It DOES naturally follow that by forcing others to prvovide medical treatment to somoene who cannot pay, that the life of that someone -is- more valuable than the labor that produced the wealth that is then taken to provide for that same someone.
    So... According to you...the life of person who cannot pay > the right of someone else to retain the fruits of their labor.
    Please - support that position.


    I am wrong on neither.
    You are trying to discuss a position of a judgement of value of a person in respose to a post that you did not otherwise address in an effort to avoid the substance of said post - which you have still not addressed. Thus, red herring.
    Wait- you tell me that my position is a non sequitur, but then turn around apply the exact opposite, and claim that it isn't a logical fallacy?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Wait- you tell me that my position is a non sequitur...
    From the post you responded to? Yes. Absolutely. No way to argue otherwise.

    but then turn around apply the exact opposite, and claim that it isn't a logical fallacy?
    -You- brought up the idea of judging the value of on person over another. I merely applied what you said to the 'must provide treatment' argument, which does exactly that. Thus, it was NOT a non sequitur from YOUR response.


    And... you have STILL not responded to the actual point I made in my post - thus, you continue the red herring.
    Last edited by PzKfW IVe; 09-15-11 at 04:55 PM.

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    Re: Should We Allow The Uninsured To Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Why won't you answer the question?
    Thiis has been addressed; to pretend otherwise is to continue in your usual dishonesty.

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