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Government can't create jobs

Government can't create jobs

  • Total voters
    83
TurtleDude said:
government creates lots of jobs: Military, bureaucracy, etc

whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is subject to much debate.
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I agree. also management of natural resources, wildfire suppression, etc.

how many jobs depends how much the public is willing to pay in taxes to fund the jobs.
 
RiverDad said:
Come on everyone, look at who started this thread. Clearly he's up to his old tricks and wants to trap everyone.
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Everyone?

No. It's just meant to make fun of adpst.

You're all falling for his fake-out.
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On the contrary, rational people all agree it can create jobs. So they aren't at all the target of the joke. Why you can't see that....well.

The answer is that government can't create jobs because governments are organizational structures and they don't have sentience. The correct answer is that people create jobs.
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That may be the most hair splitting answer this forum has ever seen.

But it fails because it ignores the fact that through the government the actions of government employees create jobs, ergo, the government creates jobs.

You are as usual, wrong.
 
Govt. can hire more people, provide tax-breaks or other economic incentives for companies to hire more people, and they can fund projects that are bid out to companies that will hopefully hire more people in order to do the work.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Government can create jobs.
The real question is, "Do those jobs actually add value to the economy at large, over time?"
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That, indeed, is the real issue.

I work in a factory. At one end, raw materials come into this factory. Within the factory, are hundreds of workers, who process and store this raw material, and who, in various stages, convert this raw material into final product, and package it. I work at the other end, from where we load the finished product into trucks, that will take it to the stores, where you will buy it. We make very good, very popular products, and I would bet that most of you who are reading this have some of my employer's products in your homes. What comes out of my end of the factory is much more valuable than what went in the other end. In converting raw materials into finished product, we are creating wealth. The economy as a whole, is enriched, by the difference in value between the raw materials coming into the Receiving end of my factory, and the product that my colleagues and I are sending out of the Shipping end of the factory.

Government does not create wealth, the way my factory does. Every job that government “creates”, is paid for out of money that is taken out of the private sector. That means that there is that much less money out here, to be used by factories such as mine, that are involved in the genuine creation of wealth. Every single person who works at my factory, participates in the creation of wealth, and in so doing, contributes more to the economy as a whole, than what it costs the company to pay that worker.

The same is simply not true of a government worker. There are some vital functions that we need government to perform, and to do that, government needs to hire workers. But do not fool yourself into thinking that the money that “creates” a certain number of jobs within government wouldn't create considerably more jobs if it was left in the private sector.
 
I'd like to see the government consider restarting the CCC and WPA on some scale. Desperate people deserve some hope. And both organizations did some amazing work in their day.
 
TurtleDude said:
One would have to be an idiot to deny the claim. However, I think the real debate is not whether the Government can create jobs like more TSA clowns, FBI special agents, poultry inspectors, district judges, DOJ prosecutors or Navy SEALS but rather can government activity create more PRIVATE sector jobs through tax hikes, tax cuts, tariffs, less or more regulations etc
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You left out debt, which was how our military expense for the last 30 years (that almost equals the rest of the world combined) and our optional wars were paid for.
 
TurtleDude said:
One would have to be an idiot to deny the claim. However, I think the real debate is not whether the Government can create jobs like more TSA clowns, FBI special agents, poultry inspectors, district judges, DOJ prosecutors or Navy SEALS but rather can government activity create more PRIVATE sector jobs through tax hikes, tax cuts, tariffs, less or more regulations etc
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that's where I think the "can government create jobs" questions is more complex than it originally sounds. are we asking if the government can create any jobs, or whether it can create jobs in net.

If destroy three bridges and use the pieces to build two, have I created bridges?
 
It is amazing how many misinformed people have voted in this poll. Government can create and atmosphere conducive to new jobs, Government jobs don't count because they are a drain on society not a plus to the economy.


Liberals are confused by Obamanomics.
 
Councilman said:
It is amazing how many misinformed people have voted in this poll. Government can create and atmosphere conducive to new jobs, Government jobs don't count because they are a drain on society not a plus to the economy.


Liberals are confused by Obamanomics.
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Could you please explain to us with appropriate data how the TVA was a drain on society?

How was the TVA a drain on the economy?
 
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Councilman said:
It is amazing how many misinformed people have voted in this poll. Government can create and atmosphere conducive to new jobs, Government jobs don't count because they are a drain on society not a plus to the economy.


Liberals are confused by Obamanomics.
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Then we have a real problem with the question, the poll, offered by the OP. The OP did not distinguish between the government creating jobs through government employment vs. creating a business centric atmosphere with incentives where private job creation grows. But that almost does not matter in that the answer to both is yes even if it is indirect, the government can both create plenty of government jobs (we have seen this plenty in recent times) and can set an atmosphere for private job creation. Where we have an issue is in how the government goes about this, both in terms of targeted tax cuts without correlating spending cuts which results in more debt as well as imbalance in tax code (which is easy to argue gets worse the further we go.) But the point is the government can set an environment for job growth even if it is artificial and temporary based on economic conditions not favorable. You could argue, rather well, that whatever private jobs have been created are not favorable as the economy is not on a path to sustained real growth anytime soon.
 
When I read such a poll question, I read "private sector" as the inferred yet left out words. Sure government can create government jobs and they have. Government is the largest employer in the U.S. What government cannot do is create private jobs.
 
Ockham said:
When I read such a poll question, I read "private sector" as the inferred yet left out words. Sure government can create government jobs and they have. Government is the largest employer in the U.S. What government cannot do is create private jobs.
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So if the government erects an office building to house 1500 workers and uses private contractors to do that work, and then fills the building with furniture, electronics, etc all made by private companies, and then other businesses open in the area like coffee shops, restaurants, cleaners, gas stations etc. - how is it that government cannot create private jobs?
 
haymarket said:
So if the government erects an office building to house 1500 workers and uses private contractors to do that work, and then fills the building with furniture, electronics, etc all made by private companies, and then other businesses open in the area like coffee shops, restaurants, cleaners, gas stations etc. - how is it that government cannot create private jobs?
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The 1500 workers are private workers or will they / do they receive their payroll from the taxpayer? Good for contractor work, and the furniture, electronics made in China - so it would certainly support the Chinese job market. Coffee shops, restaurants, cleaners, gas stations would show up whether it was a Government building or a private building - so that's irrelevant. The bottom line is, government creates more jobs to increase the size of government - eventually that model collapses on itself. Government's responsibility isn't to make itself bigger, it's to allow it's citzens to use the market and their abilities to create business on their own and become successful; not become yet another government drone on the taxpayer payroll.
 
Ockham said:
The 1500 workers are private workers or will they / do they receive their payroll from the taxpayer? Good for contractor work, and the furniture, electronics made in China - so it would certainly support the Chinese job market. Coffee shops, restaurants, cleaners, gas stations would show up whether it was a Government building or a private building - so that's irrelevant. The bottom line is, government creates more jobs to increase the size of government - eventually that model collapses on itself. Government's responsibility isn't to make itself bigger, it's to allow it's citzens to use the market and their abilities to create business on their own and become successful; not become yet another government drone on the taxpayer payroll.
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Where are these private market jobs that you speak of? All the statistics I have seen over the last 5 years is an increasing unemployment rate. We have continued the trickle down economics over the last 30 years that was supposed to increase jobs and it has had the opposite effect. The rich are simply taking their average $58,000 tax break we give them each year and investing it overseas. How does this benefit the middle class in the US or our economy?
 
Catawba said:
Where are these private market jobs that you speak of?
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You should ask that of haymarket - he's the one that brought it up.

Catawba said:
All the statistics I have seen over the last 5 years is an increasing unemployment rate. We have continued the trickle down economics over the last 30 years that was supposed to increase jobs and it has had the opposite effect. The rich are simply taking their average $58,000 tax break we give them each year and investing it overseas. How does this benefit the middle class in the US or our economy?
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And immediately you devolve into the standard class warfare rhetoric.

Color me surprised.
 
It's very simple. Government is a liability on the economy, not an asset. On a spread sheet, "government" is in the "expense" column. Every dollar the government spends has to be removed from the economy. Because the cost of a government job is greater than the cost of a job in the economy, every government job costs the economy more than one job lost.
The answer is not a bigger government... at least as long as we are not a Marxist communist economy.
The Democrats have grown the government to a size which it is impossible for the economy to pay for. That must change, or our existence will come to an end.
I don't hear anyone other than the TEA Part promoting the only sane thing Washington should be doing - making the government significantly smaller.
 
Ockham said:
You should ask that of haymarket - he's the one that brought it up.

And immediately you devolve into the standard class warfare rhetoric.

Color me surprised.
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Wanting a prosperous economy is class warfare now????
 
TurtleDude said:
government creates lots of jobs: Military, bureaucracy, etc
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Teachers, firemen, police, ect.

Not to mention private sector jobs like construction, manufacturing, research ect ect.
 
TeaPartyBiker said:
It's very simple. Government is a liability on the economy, not an asset. On a spread sheet, "government" is in the "expense" column. Every dollar the government spends has to be removed from the economy. Because the cost of a government job is greater than the cost of a job in the economy, every government job costs the economy more than one job lost.
The answer is not a bigger government... at least as long as we are not a Marxist communist economy.
The Democrats have grown the government to a size which it is impossible for the economy to pay for. That must change, or our existence will come to an end.
I don't hear anyone other than the TEA Part promoting the only sane thing Washington should be doing - making the government significantly smaller.
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Is the TEA party prepared to slash the defense budget as well, or only social programs and regulatory agencies?
 
TeaPartyBiker said:
It's very simple. Government is a liability on the economy, not an asset.
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Well you know except that for people to be able to prosper, economically and socially they have to be kept safe from harm. Which is convienent because the American Government is partially employed to keep America safe through the use of the armed forces.

Not only that but one could definitely argue that in 2008 the liability to the economy was poisonous elements of the private sector, which required the government to step in and save America and the world economy from certain, devastating, total collapse.

On a spread sheet, "government" is in the "expense" column. Every dollar the government spends has to be removed from the economy.
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Depends really, government can make investments that have returns, sure we could use Solyndra as a pinnate here but lets say HYPOTHETICALLY the US government invests in Green energy, it really does take off and helps America to finally gain energy independence, that's a massive gain for the economy, or if America for example helps in grants and loans for Digsbes schooling, and he becomes the worlds greatest micro-biologist and I dunno, cures cancer (is that what you guys do? Or is it create Micro Mutant Ninja Turtles) well that's a gain for the economy again.

Because the cost of a government job is greater than the cost of a job in the economy, every government job costs the economy more than one job lost.
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Unless of course those pesky national guardsmen employed by the government that may have saved your pizza shop during a hurricane or tornado that employed 10 people.... Stuff like that.

The answer is not a bigger government...
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We can haz betta guvmint perhaps?

at least as long as we are not a Marxist communist economy.
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Woh gee! I was worried for a second there. Thanks for clearing that up.

The Democrats have grown the government to a size which it is impossible for the economy to pay for.
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Actually not really, it's retarded to have the spending you guys have, I'll give you that. But you could actually pay for it with higher taxes, could have perhaps payed for the wars... payed for... I dunno, anything at all?

Even if you hate it, Tax and Spend is better then borrow and spend.

That must change, or our existence will come to an end.
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The sky is falling mentality.

After all is said and done you won't disappear because maybe things aren't as great. Maybe your average American will have one car instead of two with better mileage, goodbye SUV's!

Maybe you won't be able to afford to ship Grandma/Mom and Grandpa/Dad off to the old peoples home so they'll have to live with you til their days come.

Stuff like that.
 
Ockham said:
haymarket said:
So if the government erects an office building to house 1500 workers and uses private contractors to do that work, and then fills the building with furniture, electronics, etc all made by private companies, and then other businesses open in the area like coffee shops, restaurants, cleaners, gas stations etc. - how is it that government cannot create private jobs?
Click to expand...

The 1500 workers are private workers or will they / do they receive their payroll from the taxpayer? Good for contractor work, and the furniture, electronics made in China - so it would certainly support the Chinese job market. Coffee shops, restaurants, cleaners, gas stations would show up whether it was a Government building or a private building - so that's irrelevant. The bottom line is, government creates more jobs to increase the size of government - eventually that model collapses on itself. Government's responsibility isn't to make itself bigger, it's to allow it's citzens to use the market and their abilities to create business on their own and become successful; not become yet another government drone on the taxpayer payroll.
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Indeed.

Compare that building to the factory that I mentioned earlier. In my factory, wealth is being created, enriching the economy as a whole. Every worker in my factory is part of the process by which wealth is created.

What wealth are the 1500 government workers in that building creating? None at all. Sure, there is work being done, products being sold. Restaurants and gas stations and such. But the money used to pay for these things was taken out of the economy, with no contribution being made back thereto in return. This building full of 1500 government workers is the opposite of my factory—consuming and destroying wealth rather than creating it.
 
TeaPartyBiker said:
It's very simple. Government is a liability on the economy, not an asset. On a spread sheet, "government" is in the "expense" column. Every dollar the government spends has to be removed from the economy. Because the cost of a government job is greater than the cost of a job in the economy, every government job costs the economy more than one job lost.
The answer is not a bigger government... at least as long as we are not a Marxist communist economy.
The Democrats have grown the government to a size which it is impossible for the economy to pay for. That must change, or our existence will come to an end.
I don't hear anyone other than the TEA Part promoting the only sane thing Washington should be doing - making the government significantly smaller.
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Do you think money the government spends just magically disappears or something? It gets put right back into the economy. The only times money is actually disappearing is when someone is paying back loans, or when they're sending it overseas.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Indeed.

Compare that building to the factory that I mentioned earlier. In my factory, wealth is being created, enriching the economy as a whole. Every worker in my factory is part of the process by which wealth is created.

What wealth are the 1500 government workers in that building creating? None at all. Sure, there is work being done, products being sold. Restaurants and gas stations and such. But the money used to pay for these things was taken out of the economy, with no contribution being made back thereto in return. This building full of 1500 government workers is the opposite of my factory—consuming and destroying wealth rather than creating it.
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That is completely untrue. Sure, if the government employees are being paid to sit around and play Minesweeper all day, they're not creating any wealth. But what if the factory is government owned? Does it suddenly stop producing wealth? It's easy to talk about wealth being created by the production sector, but how about the service sector? Stock brokers sit around all day and play with other people's money, and make millions while they do it. Where's the wealth creation there?
 
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