View Poll Results: Government can't create jobs

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    2 0.98%
  • Agree, it cannot

    116 56.86%
  • Disagree, it can

    86 42.16%
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Thread: Government can't create jobs

  1. #291
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    WHICH, it should be noted, is much higher than your pension would have been.

    you just had to wait until 65 to get it. as opposed to rating a pension at age 38.
    I don't see it as being very popular among the active military or veterans. I think it would reduce incentive for making a career out of the military. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I don't see it as being very popular among the active military or veterans. I think it would reduce incentive for making a career out of the military. Would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
    you are right that it will not be very popular with our careerists. in fact, it seems to be sparking many to fury - everyone thinks they're special. it might be very popular with our younger members, the majority of whom get out and would now do so with a 401(k) already started that they can build on for the rest of their working lives.

    It will be a massive retention issue at our mid-high levels if it is put into place without a "grandfather" option. You will see huge drop-offs among the older guys (well, "older". at 40 you are "old" in the military), who will flood out into civilian employment.

    is that a good thing or bad thing? well, for the military's quality, it could be a bit of both - you will get rid of alot of guys who frankly suck, but are SNCO's and so can't be demoted or fired unless they break the law. you will also get rid of alot of quality personnel. However, if you are looking to slash the military like the Obama adminstration is, then you are already severely restricting our ability to perform our missions, and this is just a lower-cost method of doing so. The current administration wants to fire a large number of people anyways - this way they just quit.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-17-11 at 08:09 AM.

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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you are right that it will not be very popular with our careerists. in fact, it seems to be sparking many to fury - everyone thinks they're special. it might be very popular with our younger members, the majority of whom get out and would now do so with a 401(k) already started that they can build on for the rest of their working lives.

    It will be a massive retention issue at our mid-high levels if it is put into place without a "grandfather" option. You will see huge drop-offs among the older guys (well, "older". at 40 you are "old" in the military), who will flood out into civilian employment.

    is that a good thing or bad thing? well, for the military's quality, it could be a bit of both - you will get rid of alot of guys who frankly suck, but are SNCO's and so can't be demoted or fired unless they break the law. you will also get rid of alot of quality personnel. However, if you are looking to slash the military like the Obama adminstration is, then you are already severely restricting our ability to perform our missions, and this is just a lower-cost method of doing so. The current administration wants to fire a large number of people anyways - this way they just quit.
    Surprised that you would support the the same program as you claim Obama does.
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  4. #294
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    well, it makes sense. it's time for government in general to move from an industrial age benefits system to a post-industrial age structure. just because it effects my field doesn't mean we should be exempt - and just because the Obama administratio proposed it doesn't make it a bad idea. Heck, there are even some tiny parts of Obamacare that I like.

    Furthermore, we live in an age of constrained budgets - better that we cut some of our benefits and make other parts more efficient than give up on life-saving equipment or forward-leaning postures that secure the global market place. Given the choice between giving up a sweetheart pension at age 38/42, or making sure that the young Marines who follow me don't find themeslves in another situation like we were in Iraq without armored humvees; every servicemember worth their salt knows who they'd rather protect.


    I'm curious though - prior to this debate, did you realize that the DOD's largest expense is benefits, and the second largest is pay? That your repeated calls to reduce DOD spending by 50% was really a call to slash benefits much more dramatically than this?
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-17-11 at 08:19 AM.

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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well, it makes sense. it's time for government in general to move from an industrial age benefits system to a post-industrial age structure. just because it effects my field doesn't mean we should be exempt - and just because the Obama administratio proposed it doesn't make it a bad idea. Heck, there are even some tiny parts of Obamacare that I like.
    Just what I've been saying since Obama's campaign, he is no liberal.

    Furthermore, we live in an age of constrained budgets - better that we cut some of our benefits and make other parts more efficient than give up on life-saving equipment or forward-leaning postures that secure the global market place. Given the choice between giving up a sweetheart pension at age 38/42, or making sure that the young Marines who follow me don't find themeslves in another situation like we were in Iraq without armored humvees; every servicemember worth their salt knows who they'd rather protect.
    We differ there. I believe benefits for our soldiers are the last place we want to make cuts. How about we first look at reducing the money spent on optional wars and unneeded military bases all over the world. There will a need for fewer soldiers, and therefore you cut benefits costs for new recruits.


    I'm curious though - prior to this debate, did you realize that the DOD's largest expense is benefits, and the second largest is pay? That your repeated calls to reduce DOD spending by 50% was really a call to slash benefits much more dramatically than this?
    Yes, like I said if you cut our military back to defense only, as was intended in the Constitution, you have need of far fewer soldiers for which benefits have to be paid. I must say it is seems very odd that you would rather cut back on benefits for soldiers, rather than to cut the more wasteful undertakings of the military, like the Iraq war.
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Just what I've been saying since Obama's campaign, he is no liberal.
    well, that's simply not true. he may not be as radical left as others would like, but he is solidly to the left even of democrats in Congress.

    We differ there. I believe benefits for our soldiers are the last place we want to make cuts.
    cutting gear and research means more of us die in combat than necessary. I'd gladly give up every benefit I make if I could save just one of my fellow Marines. I'm tired of grief.

    How about we first look at reducing the money spent on optional wars and unneeded military bases all over the world
    we're going to disagree on the former, but certainly there is room for compromise on the latter. Our presence in Europe needs to be no more than we require as a base to project power into other regions such as the Middle East and Africa. The Soviet Union isn't coming for Germany.

    There will a need for fewer soldiers, and therefore you cut benefits costs for new recruits.

    Yes, like I said if you cut our military back to defense only, as was intended in the Constitution, you have need of far fewer soldiers for which benefits have to be paid. I must say it is seems very odd that you would rather cut back on benefits for soldiers, rather than to cut the more wasteful undertakings of the military, like the Iraq war.
    and as I've pointed out to you before - the US military is currently the linchpin holding world security together, and there is no one who can step in to pick up the slack. draw back our forward leaning posture, and watch the world economy collapse, along with our own. it's the policy equivalent of eating seed corn - yeah, we'll save a couple of bucks in the short term - but the long term costs will far outweigh them.


    however, irrespective - you can't get the 50% reduction you are demanding without deeply slashing benefits. that's like those who want to balance the budget by cutting pork spending and foriegn aid - you just can't get there from here by that bridge.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-17-11 at 08:50 AM.

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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well, that's simply not true. he may not be as radical left as others would like, but he is solidly to the left even of democrats in Congress.
    You can barely tell the difference between Obama's positions and conservatives in some major areas, like the bank bailouts, foreign policy, and the Republican idea for a health insurance mandate.

    cutting gear and research means more of us die in combat than necessary. I'd gladly give up every benefit I make if I could save just one of my fellow Marines. I'm tired of grief.
    I didn't say anything about cutting gear and research. I said give up optional wars and unneeded military bases. You don't serve your fellow soldiers by calling for cuts in their benefits.

    we're going to disagree on the former, but certainly there is room for compromise on the latter. Our presence in Europe needs to be no more than we require as a base to project power into other regions such as the Middle East and Africa. The Soviet Union isn't coming for Germany.
    I have a higher priority for our soldier's lives than I do for our 7 year and counting war with Iraq.


    and as I've pointed out to you before - the US military is currently the linchpin holding world security together, and there is no one who can step in to pick up the slack. draw back our forward leaning posture, and watch the world economy collapse, along with our own. it's the policy equivalent of eating seed corn - yeah, we'll save a couple of bucks in the short term - but the long term costs will far outweigh them.
    That is your opinion. 6 out of 10 of servicemen and servicewomen that have served in Afghanistan and Iraq, feel we need to place a greater priority on our problems here at home than in trying to tell other countries how to manage their affairs.


    however, irrespective - you can't get the 50% reduction you are demanding without deeply slashing benefits. that's like those who want to balance the budget by cutting pork spending and foriegn aid - you just can't get there from here by that bridge.
    Of course we can, just ask Ron Paul.
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You can barely tell the difference between Obama's positions and conservatives in some major areas, like the bank bailouts
    woah, full stop. conservatives were against the bailouts. you may recall there is a small movement known as the Tea Party that started back then over the issue. Our idiots of both parties did that crap.

    foreign policy
    tell me again how giving up the missile shield for the Russians so that maybe they would ask the Iranians to play nicer with us is conservative?

    Generally on WoT issues, I think Obama has just been forced by reality to abandon many unrealistic positions that the Left took in it's hatred and opposition to Everything Bush. That doesn't necessarily make him a natural conservative - it makes him not an idiot.

    and the Republican idea for a health insurance mandate
    which you oppose because you're a liberal, right?

    I didn't say anything about cutting gear and research. I said give up optional wars and unneeded military bases.
    that doesn't get you to 50%.

    You don't serve your fellow soldiers by calling for cuts in their benefits.
    I think I'll be the judge of how I'm serving my fellow Marines; that being said - realistically our mission is not going to be reduced, just the funds with which we are expected to accomplish it. It's going to come down to paying less on our people, or paying less on our gear.

    I have a higher priority for our soldier's lives than I do for our 7 year and counting war with Iraq.
    you're late to the party - our war with Iraq was over in late spring/early summer 2003.

    That is your opinion. 6 out of 10 of servicemen and servicewomen that have served in Afghanistan and Iraq, feel we need to place a greater priority on our problems here at home than in trying to tell other countries how to manage their affairs.
    yet only 39% support the President's plan to start withdrawing us from Afghanistan, and only 25% approve of him as President.

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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    [QUOTE=cpwill;1059879122]
    Our idiots of both parties did that crap.
    Thats what I just said.


    tell me again how giving up the missile shield for the Russians so that maybe they would ask the Iranians to play nicer with us is conservative?
    The Iranians are of no threat to us, just as the Iraqis were of no threat to us.

    Generally on WoT issues, I think Obama has just been forced by reality to abandon many unrealistic positions that the Left took in it's hatred and opposition to Everything Bush. That doesn't necessarily make him a natural conservative - it makes him not an idiot.
    BS, he made it clear he would pursue Afghanistan and Pakistan when he was campaigning.

    which you oppose because you're a liberal, right?
    Exactly, Its only a bandaid until we can get a single payer plan like the rest of the industrialized world.

    that doesn't get you to 50%.
    Well, let's try it, and see how much it saves before we start cutting benefits for our soldiers, umkay?

    I think I'll be the judge of how I'm serving my fellow Marines; that being said - realistically our mission is not going to be reduced, just the funds with which we are expected to accomplish it. It's going to come down to paying less on our people, or paying less on our gear.
    Or, less on wasteful and unnecessary wars and bases.


    you're late to the party - our war with Iraq was over in late spring/early summer 2003.
    Wrong, we still have 46,000 combat troops there. My son spent last Christmas there.


    yet only 39% support the President's plan to start withdrawing us from Afghanistan, and only 25% approve of him as President.
    I notice your poll shows 71% approve of plans to pull all troops out of Iraq by December - interesting.

    Here is another interesting poll -

    "One in three U.S. veterans of the post-9/11 military believes the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were not worth fighting, and a majority think that after 10 years of combat America should be focusing less on foreign affairs and more on its own problems, according to an opinion survey released Wednesday.

    The nonpartisan organization that studies attitudes and trends, called the study the first of its kind. The results were based on two surveys conducted between late July and mid-September. One polled 1,853 veterans, including 712 who had served in the military after 9/11 but are no longer on active duty. Of the 712 post-9/11 veterans, 336 served in Iraq or Afghanistan. The other polled 2,003 adults who had not served in the military.

    New poll shows a third of post 9/11 vets feel wars are a waste - NBC Right Now/KNDO/KNDU Tri-Cities, Yakima, WA |
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  10. #300
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Of course it fails at creating jobs, just look throughout the history of China, Argentena, Japan, etc. Once they became more free market, the economy grew rapidly.
    "It is a sad day in society when people adjust the facts to fit their beliefs, rather than adjust their beliefs to fit the facts."
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