View Poll Results: Government can't create jobs

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    2 0.98%
  • Agree, it cannot

    116 56.86%
  • Disagree, it can

    86 42.16%
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Thread: Government can't create jobs

  1. #251
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I've been in favor of switching from a pension to a 401(k) style program for military members for some time now - this way we can actually provide a benefit to the vast majority of servicemembers who honorably serve their country and then get out to go to college or take other employment in the workforce. As pertains to the wealthy and entitlement cuts - I and congressional Republicans am on record as supporting means testing them out of the entitlement programs, while in my proposed Social Security Reform I suggested hiking the FICA cap to (as I recall) a little over $400K.

    So you would place our military members pensions at risk on Wall Street. I am sure this warms the cockles of their dead little hearts!

    I agree with you on raising the FICA cap.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #252
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So you would place our military members pensions at risk on Wall Street.
    over the past two-three years, my Thrift Savings Program (which is what this would be) has outperformed my Mutual Fund investments.

    I am sure this warms the cockles of their dead little hearts!
    it will piss off the guys who have been in for 12+ years and are only staying in to hit 20 and get the full pension. for the majority of our military members (and, critically, the vast majority who are actually in combat), this would be a great boon.

    I agree with you on raising the FICA cap.
    but only in context so that you don't create perverse incentives for avoidance.
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-15-11 at 03:02 AM.

  3. #253
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    over the past two-three years, my Thrift Savings Program (which is what this would be) has outperformed my Mutual Fund investments.
    "Shareholders lost nearly $11 billion when Enron's stock price, which hit a high of US$90 per share in mid-2000, plummeted to less than $1 by the end of November 2001."
    Enron scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "The number of victims from Bernard Madoff's alleged Ponzi scheme continues to grow. A list with thousands of names of clients who invested money with Mr. Madoff was released as part of a bankruptcy-court filing. Below, see some of the most exposed investors and sort by the amount of potential losses.
    Madoff's Victim List - The Wall Street Journal


    How Wall Street and Wisconsin Officials Blew Up the State’s Pension Fund



    Public Pension Funds Lost Value As Stocks Fell


    Wall Street costs Ohio millions of dollars in pension funds


    "The 401(k) generation is beginning to retire, and it isn't a pretty sight.

    "The retirement savings plans that many baby boomers thought would see them through old age are falling short in many cases."

    Boomers Find 401(k) Plans Come Up Short - WSJ.com


    Need I go on.................
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #254
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    yes, because none of your citations do anything to disprove the point. the military 401(k) is the TSP. It is literally impossible to buy individual stock (enron) in TSP, just as it is literally impossible to put all your money with a single manager (madoff). You ride broad sectors of the market - or you can buy into treasuries. as you yourself point out - pension funds have to invest in the market as well, and are just as prone to market failure as individual accounts are. Something that I find intensely amusing when people talk about all the "greed" that led to the dizzying sub-prime mortgage bubble and burst is that inevitably they fail to mention that among the biggest pushers of that market were... pension funds; who wanted official AAA security, but with a higher return than they would get from treasuries.

    you are right to say that the market is volatile. you get dips in the market. that is why you shouldn't put any money there that you intend to need in 3-5 years. you also get recoveries and sharp rises. over time it averages out - since this is a long-term retirement fund, you are riding that long-term average, and you benefit by it and the compound interest it affords.

  5. #255
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    yes, because none of your citations do anything to disprove the point. the military 401(k) is the TSP. It is literally impossible to buy individual stock (enron) in TSP, just as it is literally impossible to put all your money with a single manager (madoff). You ride broad sectors of the market - or you can buy into treasuries. as you yourself point out - pension funds have to invest in the market as well, and are just as prone to market failure as individual accounts are. Something that I find intensely amusing when people talk about all the "greed" that led to the dizzying sub-prime mortgage bubble and burst is that inevitably they fail to mention that among the biggest pushers of that market were... pension funds; who wanted official AAA security, but with a higher return than they would get from treasuries.

    you are right to say that the market is volatile. you get dips in the market. that is why you shouldn't put any money there that you intend to need in 3-5 years. you also get recoveries and sharp rises. over time it averages out - since this is a long-term retirement fund, you are riding that long-term average, and you benefit by it and the compound interest it affords.
    Why don't you pitch your wall street pension scheme for the military to your GOP candidates and have them make it a plank in their platform, if you think it is the greatest idea since sliced bread. Heck, it sounds like it is just extreme enough to be right up Ron Paul's ally!

    This may be what he needs to put him over the top!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #256
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Why don't you pitch your wall street pension scheme for the military
    they're actually already looking at the idea.

    to your GOP candidates and have them make it a plank in their platform, if you think it is the greatest idea since sliced bread. Heck, it sounds like it is just extreme enough to be right up Ron Paul's ally!
    actually it's the Obama administration that is looking at putting this into practice. but hey, I'm 100% in favor of you refusing to vote for a candidate who would support such an extreme right-wing idea.



    woops?
    Last edited by cpwill; 10-15-11 at 07:37 AM.

  7. #257
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    I predict: silence.

  8. #258
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So you would place our military members pensions at risk on Wall Street. I am sure this warms the cockles of their dead little hearts!

    I agree with you on raising the FICA cap.
    A 401k is simply a retirement savings account. The plan can be set up so that the money in the plan does not have to be invested in equities. It may be kept in an interest bearing savings account.
    Last edited by Centinel; 10-15-11 at 10:09 AM.

  9. #259
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    they're actually already looking at the idea.



    actually it's the Obama administration that is looking at putting this into practice. but hey, I'm 100% in favor of you refusing to vote for a candidate who would support such an extreme right-wing idea.



    woops?
    Just more evidence that Obama is a center-right politician and the rightwing whines about socialism are just a delusion
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #260
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    Re: Government can't create jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Just more evidence that Obama is a center-right politician and the rightwing whines about socialism are just a delusion
    nah, antipathy to the military is a lefty tradition for the past few decades or so. everyone in the service knew generally what was coming when he was elected - that's one of the reasons the military votes so strongly republican.

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