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Is Labor a Commodity?

Is Labor a Commodity

  • Yes, it's a commodity subject to the market of wages offered

    Votes: 9 32.1%

  • No, it's not a commodity, workers should receive a living wage

    Votes: 11 39.3%

  • Yes, fill in your own justification

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • No, fill in your own justification

    Votes: 6 21.4%
  • Total voters
    28
TurtleDude said:
yeah your leftwing ideals are "complex" because you say so and we who oppose them are "simple" I suppose

you want your side to win elections. that is no more complex than we who want your dem masters to lose
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I do not remember saying anything to you about simple and complex as to ideals. What I specifically said was that your invocation of FREEDOM was a hollow cliche that belonged on a bumper sticker or lapel pin since it is devoid of any real meaning without context or as part of a material discussion on an actual issue.

I hope that clears it up.
 
haymarket said:
I do not remember saying anything to you about simple and complex as to ideals. What I specifically said was that your invocation of FREEDOM was a hollow cliche that belonged on a bumper sticker or lapel pin since it is devoid of any real meaning without context or as part of a material discussion on an actual issue.

I hope that clears it up.
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Freedom scares many people. The thought of having to make it on your own terrifies many of those who are comfortably sucking on the public teat or those who pander to such people.

and to pretend that only us advocates of Freedom use "bumper sticker" slogans is both inaccurate and dishonest
 
TurtleDude said:
Freedom scares many people. The thought of having to make it on your own terrifies many of those who are comfortably sucking on the public teat or those who pander to such people.

and to pretend that only us advocates of Freedom use "bumper sticker" slogans is both inaccurate and dishonest
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What scares me are right wingers with demonstrated fascist tendencies who are more than willing to use hollow slogans, bumper sticker pontifications and lapel pin over simplifications to win and keep power instead of actually discussing weighty matters of public policy with verifiable evidence to support their claims and allegations.

But thats just my own pet peeve like some people don't like smoking or loud farting in public.
 
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haymarket said:
What scares me are right wingers with demonstrated fascist tendencies who are more than willing to use hollow slogans, bumper sticker pontifications and lapel pin over simplifications to win and keep power instead of actually discussing weighty matters of public policy with verifiable evidence to support their claims and allegations.

But thats just my own pet peeve like some people don't like smoking or loud farting in public.
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fascist tendencies? Like saying that the rich should grovel at the feet of the masses to keep the wealth that they honestly and fairly earned? The american right is far more removed from fascist tendencies than the collectivist left
 
TurtleDude said:
fascist tendencies? Like saying that the rich should grovel at the feet of the masses to keep the wealth that they honestly and fairly earned? The american right is far more removed from fascist tendencies than the collectivist left
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Translation: I have no idea what the difference between fascism and authoritarian socialism is. I'll give you a hint: fascism is a right wing ideology.
 
TurtleDude said:
are you mad at those who invest and make money?
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No, just pointing out the obvious hypocrisy in your position. You get all huffy about mothers living in abject poverty getting enough to feed their kid because they didn't earn it, but you get equally huffy about how we need to be giving even more money to super rich people who already have way more than they need and many of who also don't do anything to earn it.

TurtleDude said:
an investing does help create wealth.
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If tomorrow there were a computer glitch somewhere in the computers at Bank of America and all those shares that are presently listed as being owned by different super rich folks were suddenly recorded as belonging to me, would I be creating enormous amounts of wealth and creating jobs?
 
atrasicarius said:
Translation: I have no idea what the difference between fascism and authoritarian socialism is. I'll give you a hint: fascism is a right wing ideology.
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limiting yourself to a linear paradigm of political philosophy is silly

collectivist authoritarian socialism and collectivist fascism are pretty similar in terms of what happens to those living under either regimes.

Most of those on the economic right want less government and less collectivism which is the polar opposite of fascism
 
teamosil said:
No, just pointing out the obvious hypocrisy in your position. You get all huffy about mothers living in abject poverty getting enough to feed their kid because they didn't earn it, but you get equally huffy about how we need to be giving even more money to super rich people who already have way more than they need and many of who also don't do anything to earn it.



If tomorrow there were a computer glitch somewhere in the computers at Bank of America and all those shares that are presently listed as being owned by different super rich folks were suddenly recorded as belonging to me, would I be creating enormous amounts of wealth and creating jobs?
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who is GIVING MONEY to the uber rich?
 
TurtleDude said:
limiting yourself to a linear paradigm of political philosophy is silly

collectivist authoritarian socialism and collectivist fascism are pretty similar in terms of what happens to those living under either regimes.

Most of those on the economic right want less government and less collectivism which is the polar opposite of fascism
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Yes, they're pretty similar in function. They're complete, polar opposites in how you get to them, though. Fascism is the logical conclusion of corporatism, which is the logical conclusion of an unregulated free market. Authoritarian socialism is the result of a failed communist revolution. Fascism isn't about a powerful government. Fascism is about a government so weak, it's been completely subsumed by the corporations, and become indistinguishable from them. The results look pretty much the same as totalitarianism, except that the people on the right are fine with it, because it's all done in the private sector.
 
TurtleDude said:
who is GIVING MONEY to the uber rich?
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The same source as all money has- our country's economy. We have a bunch of rules and norms laid out. Those rules and norms determine who gets what. When any of those rules result in any money going to people who need it, you get mad. When any of those rules result in money going to people who don't need it, you are happy.
 
TurtleDude said:
fascist tendencies? Like saying that the rich should grovel at the feet of the masses to keep the wealth that they honestly and fairly earned? The american right is far more removed from fascist tendencies than the collectivist left
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The rich should indeed give thanks that they are allowed to live in a land where they can keep so much of their wealth as compared to other nations which are no so generous to the wealthy.

The Far right libertarian fringe is the closest thing we have in this nation to fascism. When I look at the creation of the right wing - The American Legislative Exchange Council ALEC and how they allow major corporations to buy voting seats at the table along with elected state legislators to determine policy which is then strongly suggested to state legislatures around the land - I cannot help but remember how the fascist supreme - Benito Mussolini - dissolved the elected Italian parliament and replaced it with a body of corporatists ALEC seems to be using Mussolini as its model.

read and learn

http://alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

http://www.rawfoodinfo.com/articles/art_Amerfascism.html

As the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary noted, fascism is: "A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."

Mussolini was quite straightforward about all this. In a 1923 pamphlet titled "The Doctrine of Fascism" he wrote, "If classical liberalism spells individualism, Fascism spells government." But not a government of, by, and for We The People - instead, it would be a government of, by, and for the most powerful corporate interests in the nation.

In 1938, Mussolini brought his vision of fascism into full reality when he dissolved Parliament and replaced it with the "Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni" - the Chamber of the Fascist Corporations. Corporations were still privately owned, but now instead of having to sneak their money to folks like Tom DeLay and covertly write legislation, they were openly in charge of the government.
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atrasicarius said:
Yes, they're pretty similar in function. They're complete, polar opposites in how you get to them, though. Fascism is the logical conclusion of corporatism, which is the logical conclusion of an unregulated free market. Authoritarian socialism is the result of a failed communist revolution. Fascism isn't about a powerful government. Fascism is about a government so weak, it's been completely subsumed by the corporations, and become indistinguishable from them. The results look pretty much the same as totalitarianism, except that the people on the right are fine with it, because it's all done in the private sector.
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Opinion noted, not necessarily agreed to
 
haymarket said:
The rich should indeed give thanks that they are allowed to live in a land where they can keep so much of their wealth as compared to other nations which are no so generous to the wealthy.

The Far right libertarian fringe is the closest thing we have in this nation to fascism. When I look at the creation of the right wing - The American Legislative Exchange Council ALEC and how they allow major corporations to buy voting seats at the table along with elected state legislators to determine policy which is then strongly suggested to state legislatures around the land - I cannot help but remember how the fascist supreme - Benito Mussolini - dissolved the elected Italian parliament and replaced it with a body of corporatists ALEC seems to be using Mussolini as its model.
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the poor should give thanks that others allow them to eat and survive. The poor need the government far more than the rich and the resourceful
 
teamosil said:
The same source as all money has- our country's economy. We have a bunch of rules and norms laid out. Those rules and norms determine who gets what. When any of those rules result in any money going to people who need it, you get mad. When any of those rules result in money going to people who don't need it, you are happy.
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You sure project much onto me. i don't get mad here, this is entertainment. and tax cuts are not giving the rich anything. its the middle and lower classes who are given stuff by the government

that is why your leader believes that cutting government is the sacrifice the lower classes have to make while paying more taxes is the sacrifice the top taxpayers have to make

that claim shows Obama believes that government benefits mainly those who are not top tax payers
 
TurtleDude said:
the poor should give thanks that others allow them to eat and survive. The poor need the government far more than the rich and the resourceful
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I am sure they are thankful. In a democratic republic where so many are poor and so few are rich, you really do not have much choice then do you?

And since you failed to speak to it, I must conclude the lesson on Mussolini and fascism as advanced by ALEC and the American far right convinced you.
 
haymarket said:
I am sure they are thankful. In a democratic republic where so many are poor and so few are rich, you really do not have much choice then do you?
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most people who are poor are poor due to poor choices they are their parents have made

not due to anything the rich have done

the rich don't cause people to drop out of highschool

do drugs

or spawn like rabbits
 
TurtleDude said:
most people who are poor are poor due to poor choices they are their parents have made

not due to anything the rich have done

the rich don't cause people to drop out of highschool

do drugs

or spawn like rabbits
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Or use terrible grammar.
 
Redress said:
Or use terrible grammar.
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grammar nazis are so yesterday

I was distracted by the hot blond interviewing some FBI expert on 60 minutes

a sexy south african accent with legs to die for!!
 
TurtleDude said:
You sure project much onto me. i don't get mad here, this is entertainment. and tax cuts are not giving the rich anything.
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Of course they are. Whether you call it a handout or a tax break is just semantics. They're the same thing. The individual ends the day with more money, the deficit is higher by the same amount. If the check they get has "tax refund" printed on it, or it has "entitlement" printed on it doesn't make a bit of difference. If tomorrow I got elected as emperor of the country and passed a law that said my good friend and supporter John Doe gets a $1 million tax break, would you see that as any different than if I just passed a law that said "ok, John Doe still needs to pay $1 million in taxes, but then we'll give him a $1 million entitlement"? Please tell me you aren't that easy to fool.

TurtleDude said:
its the middle and lower classes who are given stuff by the government
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Don't be ridiculous. A rich person benefits hundreds or even millions of times as much from the government as a poor person. For example, an individual worker only benefits from their own education, where an employer benefits from the educations of all their employees. The stimulus package boosted to stock market, conservatively, 40%. That means very little for the poor, but meant something like $10 billion for Bill Gates.

TurtleDude said:
that claim shows Obama believes that government benefits mainly those who are not top tax payers
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That's quite a leap there. Domestic entitlement programs are what they're cutting. Those benefit the middle class the most. That doesn't mean government as a whole benefits the middle class the most. Government sets up the rules of the game. By definition the wealthy are the ones benefiting the most from the game.
 
TurtleDude said:
most people who are poor are poor due to poor choices they are their parents have made
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You are totally missing the point and attempting to move the goal posts and engage in diversion away from what was being discussed.

You said this

Like saying that the rich should grovel at the feet of the masses to keep the wealth that they honestly and fairly earned?
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This is something you keep bringing up from time to time because you took such a personal concern with my remarks that the rich should be thankful

I replied to you with the following


The rich should indeed give thanks that they are allowed to live in a land where they can keep so much of their wealth as compared to other nations which are no so generous to the wealthy.
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you then replied with this

the poor should give thanks that others allow them to eat and survive. The poor need the government far more than the rich and the resourceful
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You attempted to change the discussion from the wealthy and what society allows them generously to retain and shift the discussion to the poor - your normal target.

I replied to that with the following


I am sure they are thankful. In a democratic republic where so many are poor and so few are rich, you really do not have much choice then do you?
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If you read the flow of the discussion in those four excerpts you will see that my comment about the poor being thankful refers to the reality that the wealthy do not have a whole lot of choice in this matter since we live in a democratic republic where they are badly outnumbered. The consequences of a modern "let them eat cake" ideology would be disastrous for the wealthy. They know this so they pay welfare and other means of support as a type of pacification program to prevent the poor from doing anything that would endanger their fragile position.
 
to claim that a handout-money taken from someone who earned it and then given to someone who did nothing to earn it-is the same as a tax break meaning less is taken from someone who earned it is really really wrong

of course if you believe all wealth belongs to the government I suppose I can see such a perspective

Your claim that the rich benefit more from the government is an article of faith for the socialist left but even Obama disagrees with that
 
TurtleDude said:
to claim that a handout-money taken from someone who earned it and then given to someone who did nothing to earn it-is the same as a tax break meaning less is taken from someone who earned it is really really wrong

of course if you believe all wealth belongs to the government I suppose I can see such a perspective
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You need to knock your analysis up a notch. You're stuck at the bumper sticker slogan level. Re-read my post, give it some thought, and let me know what you think.

TurtleDude said:
Your claim that the rich benefit more from the government is an article of faith for the socialist left but even Obama disagrees with that
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Huh? No, he didn't say that at all. He said those specific spending cuts- mostly entitlements- would hurt the poor and middle class more. You can't jump from that to government as a whole. Most our spending is not entitlements and spending is only part of what government does.
 
teamosil said:
You need to knock your analysis up a notch. You're stuck at the bumper sticker slogan level. Re-read my post, give it some thought, and let me know what you think.



Huh? No, he didn't say that at all. He said those specific spending cuts- mostly entitlements- would hurt the poor and middle class more. You can't jump from that to government as a whole. Most our spending is not entitlements and spending is only part of what government does.
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most of the spending is not entitlements? yet most of it is not to benefit the rich

but the rich pay most of the income taxes. the top 5% pay more than the rest of the country combined. and Obama claims the rich don't pay their fair share
 
TurtleDude said:
most of the spending is not entitlements? yet most of it is not to benefit the rich

but the rich pay most of the income taxes. the top 5% pay more than the rest of the country combined. and Obama claims the rich don't pay their fair share
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Because you focus on one tax paid to just one level of government and intentionally and purposely willfully ignore all other taxes paid by the American people, the word FAIR does not even enter into this.
 
haymarket said:
Because you focus on one tax paid to just one level of government and intentionally and purposely willfully ignore all other taxes paid by the American people, the word FAIR does not even enter into this.
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the rich tend to pay the most of any tax. but the fact remains, your master, Obama, talks about INCOME tax, not excise taxes, not property taxes, not gasoline taxes but the federal income taxes and he claims the rich don't pay their fair share which is not only steaming BS designed to appeal to the envious it is also a lie

the richest taxpayers are the only group that pay a higher share of the federal income tax than their share of the income
 
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