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Is Labor a Commodity?

Is Labor a Commodity

  • Yes, it's a commodity subject to the market of wages offered

    Votes: 9 32.1%

  • No, it's not a commodity, workers should receive a living wage

    Votes: 11 39.3%

  • Yes, fill in your own justification

    Votes: 2 7.1%

  • No, fill in your own justification

    Votes: 6 21.4%
  • Total voters
    28
TurtleDude said:
spare me the psychobabble. The market sets wages. If someone has skills that only bring 7 dollars an hour

1) whose fault is that

2) why would an employer pay him 20 an hour when other employers can get equally skilled labor for less than half than that

3) "obscenely wealthy" people (wtf does that mean) aren't that way due to market rates of wages. Those people you think are too rich mainly are that rich because they start a business that takes off. The guys who started Google are not obscenely rich due to them underpaying workers. Same with Bill Gates. Your either or argument has no merit whatsoever
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Imagine a society with 200 people living in it, that only requires 100 people to work full time to provide all the necessities. Under the current price and wages model, people need to work full time to survive, which means that half the people aren't guaranteed jobs, and likely have jobs that are essentially make work. Instead, all 200 can work half time, and the prices and wages model can be adjusted so that they can all afford the necessities. Or alternatively, those that want some kind of specialist job can get one, and those that don't can do the remaining amount of necessary labor and have more free time than they would otherwise.
 
TurtleDude said:
agreed

we don't need political correctness or how to put a condom on a cucumber or history lessons about lesbian native american contributions to say modern medicine. we need to teach skills and trades.
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Actually, we do need how to put a condom on a cucumber. Aren't you the one who's always complaining about how many babies poor people have? We definitely need a much greater focus on skills and trades, though. Those should be taught during high school, and people who want to study them shouldn't have to study history or English or whatever.
 
Cephus said:
While I'll be the first to say we need to improve our educational system, the fact that in many areas, there's a greater than 50% drop out rate certainly doesn't help. The fact that many parents are ignorant and therefore don't push their kids to get an education is a huge problem.
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The thing about humans is that we instinctively want to learn. It'll happen naturally as long as you don't put kids in an environment that's extremely hostile to learning. Like, you know, a modern school.
 
atrasicarius said:
Actually, we do need how to put a condom on a cucumber. Aren't you the one who's always complaining about how many babies poor people have? We definitely need a much greater focus on skills and trades, though. Those should be taught during high school, and people who want to study them shouldn't have to study history or English or whatever.
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That assumes these poor people are smart enough to actually use a condom in the first place, much less be afford to have one available. Certainly we do need to teach actual job skills, that's an absolute necessity.
 
TurtleDude said:
That's being contrarian

Lets use 8 an hour

point remains
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The fact remains that this magic $7 or 8 dollars per hour that YOU want to believe is produced solely by market forces IS NOT.

we need to teach skills and trades.
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to whom? How is this decision reached? Are you saying we should teach nothing that is outside of a skill needed for a specific trade or skill?
 
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atrasicarius said:
The thing about humans is that we instinctively want to learn. It'll happen naturally as long as you don't put kids in an environment that's extremely hostile to learning. Like, you know, a modern school.
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There's nothing hostile in modern schools. Both of my kids are in modern schools and both getting straight A's. They both want to learn and they do. Try again.
 
Cephus said:
There's nothing hostile in modern schools. Both of my kids are in modern schools and both getting straight A's. They both want to learn and they do. Try again.
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Well, I was mostly being facetious. I think what I said does hold true in a lot of situations, though. It depends on both the school and the kid in question. This thread isn't really about education, though.
 
Cephus said:
There's nothing hostile in modern schools. Both of my kids are in modern schools and both getting straight A's. They both want to learn and they do. Try again.
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You should change your statement to

I have found nothing hostile in the school my children attend.

beyond that, you really cannot say for sure one way or the other.
 
haymarket said:
You should change your statement to

I have found nothing hostile in the school my children attend.

beyond that, you really cannot say for sure one way or the other.
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Sure, but I can expand that to any school I've ever had any experience with, plus I have friends who are teachers and they'll tell you the same thing. The problem, in general, isn't the schools, it's the attitudes of the kids and their parents.
 
Cephus said:
Sure, but I can expand that to any school I've ever had any experience with, plus I have friends who are teachers and they'll tell you the same thing. The problem, in general, isn't the schools, it's the attitudes of the kids and their parents.
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Where do you think the attitudes of the kids come from? Did you ever stop and think about why 90 percent of kids dread school? It shouldn't be that way. Like I said, we're programed to enjoy learning. If we're not, we're doing something wrong.
 
haymarket said:
The fact remains that this magic $7 or 8 dollars per hour that YOU want to believe is produced solely by market forces IS NOT.



to whom? How is this decision reached? Are you saying we should teach nothing that is outside of a skill needed for a specific trade or skill?
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I oppose minimum wage legislation as both violating the constitutional prohibition as embodied by the tenth amendment and being contrary to economic reality.

people need to have skills that are needed. for example. at one time knowing how to use a broadsword or a sling was an important skill. same with being able to ride a horse or to make buggy whips.

right now-not so much
 
Cephus said:
Sure, but I can expand that to any school I've ever had any experience with, plus I have friends who are teachers and they'll tell you the same thing. The problem, in general, isn't the schools, it's the attitudes of the kids and their parents.
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some ethnic groups value education they are the ones who make up say 2 percent of the US population and have 30% of the students at top law and medical schools

or dominate engineering schools

than there are other groups that don't value education and have tons of their members dropping out of high school
 
atrasicarius said:
Where do you think the attitudes of the kids come from? Did you ever stop and think about why 90 percent of kids dread school? It shouldn't be that way. Like I said, we're programed to enjoy learning. If we're not, we're doing something wrong.
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Sure, they'd rather be home playing video games or hanging out with their friends. Hell, I'd rather be doing that than going to work every day, but everyone has to be instilled with a sense of responsibility to do what they're supposed to do, whether they like it or not. Who cares if you like it? Who cares if it's fun? It's part of growing up. Too bad so many people never do.
 
TurtleDude said:
some ethnic groups value education they are the ones who make up say 2 percent of the US population and have 30% of the students at top law and medical schools

or dominate engineering schools

than there are other groups that don't value education and have tons of their members dropping out of high school
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And those are the ones who are usually on the welfare lines screaming they want to screw the wealthy because they deserve more stuff!
 
TurtleDude said:
I oppose minimum wage legislation as both violating the constitutional prohibition as embodied by the tenth amendment and being contrary to economic reality.

people need to have skills that are needed. for example. at one time knowing how to use a broadsword or a sling was an important skill. same with being able to ride a horse or to make buggy whips.

right now-not so much
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Wonderful - so you oppose it. That is irrelevant. The reality is that the figure you yourself point to - $7 or $8 per hours - is NOT established by the sole work of market forces - but by government and law. But yet, you defend the $7 or $8 dollars just the same as all they can get or all an employer will pay.
 
Cephus said:
And those are the ones who are usually on the welfare lines screaming they want to screw the wealthy because they deserve more stuff!
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Nailed that one right on the head
 
Occam's Razor said:
No... the knowledge and skills are a commodity... not the labor.

Tell me, when an hourly worker goes over 40 hours a week, their pay suddenly goes up by fifty percent. Did their skills increase? Their knowledge? Did their job suddenly become more rare? No. It's because it requires more sacrifice of the time of life, taking away from family and leisure.
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So if the pay increases without the skills/knowledge increasing, that implies that the labor is the commodity, not the skills/knowledge.

Labor is a commodity, that's why people get paid for their time.
 
haymarket said:
Wonderful - so you oppose it. That is irrelevant. The reality is that the figure you yourself point to - $7 or $8 per hours - is NOT established by the sole work of market forces - but by government and law. But yet, you defend the $7 or $8 dollars just the same as all they can get or all an employer will pay.
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I defend economic reality. if someone is worth only 8 an hour its

1) idiotic to demand the employer pay more merely based on the "needs" of the employee that are not sufficiently addressed by his skills

2) not the fault of society or the employer or especially the market
 
Cephus said:
Sure, but I can expand that to any school I've ever had any experience with, plus I have friends who are teachers and they'll tell you the same thing. The problem, in general, isn't the schools, it's the attitudes of the kids and their parents.
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If you are basing your evaluation on your own experience, that is by definition highly limited. To add the experience of others may or may not add anything to your statement since you have no control over their evaluation and the truth or validity of their evaluation.

Like you I have personal experience. I attended school from grades K - 12. I attended college to obtain a Bachelors and Masters Degrees plus additional advanced classes. I taught in the public school system for over 33 years. I was classified as a Master Teacher who trained and educated other teachers. My children attended K-12 and I have experience as a parent.

So I have experience just like you have experience but I doubt they are the same experience. You cannot vouch for schools I attended and I cannot vouch for school you attended. To base this on personal experience is going to be very limited by definition.
 
TurtleDude said:
I defend economic reality. if someone is worth only 8 an hour its

1) idiotic to demand the employer pay more merely based on the "needs" of the employee that are not sufficiently addressed by his skills

2) not the fault of society or the employer or especially the market
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You are missing the central point here. YOU are using the $8 dollar an hour figure and attempting to justify it with market conditions claiming the $8 per hour is a result of those conditions when we have already established that IT IS NOT.

The very figure that YOU are attempting to justify was produced by government in a system that you are opposed to.
 
haymarket said:
If you are basing your evaluation on your own experience, that is by definition highly limited. To add the experience of others may or may not add anything to your statement since you have no control over their evaluation and the truth or validity of their evaluation.

Like you I have personal experience. I attended school from grades K - 12. I attended college to obtain a Bachelors and Masters Degrees plus additional advanced classes. I taught in the public school system for over 33 years. I was classified as a Master Teacher who trained and educated other teachers. My children attended K-12 and I have experience as a parent.

So I have experience just like you have experience but I doubt they are the same experience. You cannot vouch for schools I attended and I cannot vouch for school you attended. To base this on personal experience is going to be very limited by definition.
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Your kids didn't attend university?
 
Ok, without reading the thread,

Yes, at this point in time it is a commodity.

Should it be?

No.

Why?

Because ALL other commodities are by definition property.

And slavery is illegal.

I, and what I produce with un-replaceable hours of my life, am not a pallet of 2x4s or a barrel of oil.

The fact that our man made "system" calculates it so is something that needs to be corrected, IMO, not accepted like sunrise or gravity.
 
TurtleDude said:
Your kids didn't attend university?
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Yes they did. I did not include it because I - as i assume most parents - had a very different level of involvement in their K-12 education as opposed to their college education.
 
haymarket said:
The fact remains that this magic $7 or 8 dollars per hour that YOU want to believe is produced solely by market forces IS NOT.



to whom? How is this decision reached? Are you saying we should teach nothing that is outside of a skill needed for a specific trade or skill?
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Wage is a controlled commodity on the base end ... which seems to create a lot of derision, yet compensation is not set by market conditions and wages are a "cornered" commodity. By maintaining a basically finite pool of labor through control of legislation and capital, interests may move jobs to cheap labor driving down markets for labor in one area, while increasing markets in another area.

Skills, education, and the need for skills then become merely a catch phrase for ways to improve ... anything you want to pretend was lacking in the first place.

You see a post ... x field or y field is short of skills in the market. OK ... the jobs which exited market A were already being done and moved to market B. Now suddenly Market A is uneducated and unskilled.

For example 20 visa workers from India, hired to replace 17 American workers at 20% to 25% of the cost (link below). The laid off employee's were given the benefits of training their replacements.
Did the employees being laid off suddenly become uneducated? Was the market short of their skill set?

So for the millions of jobs exported ... there were skills in America ... skill and education that did not vaporize like magic.

Education and skills are a catch phrase / cover story to explain the lack of job creation in America. The job flotilla sets market conditions for compensation ... if it leaves China for Chad, compensation may be a loaf of bread a day.



USATODAY.com - Workers asked to train foreign replacements
On a Friday in 2003, the former WatchMark software tester was part of a team of workers summoned to a meeting. There, she says, managers handed out letters explaining that the testing staff was being laid off. Managers then told the group that their replacements would be workers in India, she says. The workers were flying in and would be in the office Monday. She says she was instructed to train them.

Bronstein felt trapped. She says she believes that if she refused, she would have probably been fired without severance and would have been ineligible for unemployment benefits. If she quit, she says, she wouldn't have received severance or been eligible for unemployment.
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