View Poll Results: Is Labor a Commodity

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, it's a commodity subject to the market of wages offered

    10 33.33%
  • No, it's not a commodity, workers should receive a living wage

    12 40.00%
  • Yes, fill in your own justification

    2 6.67%
  • No, fill in your own justification

    6 20.00%
Page 9 of 22 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 212

Thread: Is Labor a Commodity?

  1. #81
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:58 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,606

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yup - they believe that being selfish and self centered somehow someway as if by magic makes society as a whole better.

    The sheer stupidity of that dwarfs the largest mountain on earth.
    as opposed to buying goodwill and votes with money other people earned?



  2. #82
    Professor

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    MI and AZ
    Last Seen
    03-15-15 @ 01:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    1,581

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm speaking of labor provided by individuals, not labor as jobs offered by companies.

    What is the essence of labor? Is it a commodity, or is it a the product of commodities invested by an individual such as time and energy?

    Or maybe you have another view or philosophy you'd like to share on the subject of labor.

    Please try to support your positions with quotes, links, citations, historical precedent, etc... Personal opinions are little more than anecdotal without knowing how and why you draw the conclusions you do.
    No, labor is not a commodity since the term is not specific enough. Commodities require some uniformity in what they are. A commodity can be a specific class of crude oil and another would be regular gas that meets standards. Wiki supports me on this and most any dictionary. A commodity has a physical existence and it can just sit in a location, labor doesn’t.
    Then you equate labor to what you say are commodities, “time and energy”, but they are not commodities. You can’t buy time (Although in some instances time is a word used for something that is not time, but rather some service, etc.) and the energy a person puts out can’t be put in a bin of any sort, and used later.
    You are making equates where language development has differentiated different things with reason. You are essentially proposing a change in language, and the change is to less precision.

  3. #83
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,769

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    Right, let me explain this very slowly and carefully: It's not someone's fault that they can't get an education if educations aren't being offered in their area. And that's exactly what most inner city schools amount to, whatever excuses you might try to make. Every time you blame someone for not having an education, you're completely disregarding the society that surrounds them.
    Educations are being offered in every area. It's certainly someone's fault if they drop out of school. Why are you pretending otherwise?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  4. #84
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,769

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    As I said. You always fail to consider people as products of their society.
    Actually, a society is the product of the people. If a society fails, one must look at the people which comprise it.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  5. #85
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    Ok, but do you acknowledge that technological solutions are more and more often eliminating useful work, creating a situation where there isn't enough actual useful work that needs to be done to provide all those able to work with full time employment?

    I see this as a problem that is beginning to manifest now, and that is going to get worse fast.

    A genuine 800 pound gorilla.
    No. Technology creates new jobs, and enables the mass production of things that were impossible or expensive to make before. What you are suggesting is often called the neo-luddite fallacy: It assumes that machines will simply replace workers and production will carry on the same as before. In actuality, the history of our technological development has been such that on the whole, industry uses automation to increase production rather than decrease labor. In fact, the number of jobs in America today is STAGGERINGLY higher than the number of jobs in America 50 years ago despite all of our technological progress...and the jobs today offer more pleasant conditions.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  6. #86
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,769

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. Technology creates new jobs, and enables the mass production of things that were impossible or expensive to make before. What you are suggesting is often called the neo-luddite fallacy: It assumes that machines will simply replace workers and production will carry on the same as before. In actuality, the history of our technological development has been such that on the whole, industry uses automation to increase production rather than decrease labor. In fact, the number of jobs in America today is STAGGERINGLY higher than the number of jobs in America 50 years ago despite all of our technological progress...and the jobs today offer more pleasant conditions.
    You are very correct. The only problem is, the jobs that are being created require more knowledge and skill than the jobs that they are replacing. When people are uneducated and unskilled, they often lack the ability to do the new, better paying jobs. There was a time in America where you could drop out of school, never learn a trade and still perform menial labor. Those days are very quickly vanishing. To be perfectly honest, I'm not too sympathetic to stupid people who ruin their own lives, get no education, make idiotic decisions, then expect the world to roll over for them because they refuse to take responsibility for their own decisions and actions.

    Give me the increasingly technological future any day.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  7. #87
    Professor
    atrasicarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Last Seen
    12-23-12 @ 05:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    2,227

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Educations are being offered in every area. It's certainly someone's fault if they drop out of school. Why are you pretending otherwise?
    If a kid drops out of school, it means the education system has failed him. Maybe not in every case. Some kids, and some people, are just genuine **** ups, and nothing anyone else can do will change that. In 90 percent of cases, though, if you took that kid who dropped out and put him in a better school, he would have done just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Actually, a society is the product of the people. If a society fails, one must look at the people which comprise it.
    Bull****. People are basically the same wherever you go. The only thing that makes them different is the society they're raised in. Individuals are affected by nature, but for groups of people, nurture is the only thing that matters. Everything else averages out.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

  8. #88
    Sage
    Cephus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    CA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    29,769

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by atrasicarius View Post
    If a kid drops out of school, it means the education system has failed him. Maybe not in every case. Some kids, and some people, are just genuine **** ups, and nothing anyone else can do will change that. In 90 percent of cases, though, if you took that kid who dropped out and put him in a better school, he would have done just fine.
    If a kid drops out of school, the only one who has failed that kid is that kid. It's like saying if someone walks out of a restaurant hungry, the restaurant has failed them. That's idiotic. The education is available to them, they are the ones that refuse it. What's wrong with you that you can't comprehend personal responsibility?

    Bull****. People are basically the same wherever you go. The only thing that makes them different is the society they're raised in. Individuals are affected by nature, but for groups of people, nurture is the only thing that matters. Everything else averages out.
    Societies are self-perpetuating entities. They are started by people, they are continued by people and people are to blame for them, good or ill. Stop looking to pass the buck, people are responsible for themselves, period.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

    Blog me! YouTube me! VidMe me!

  9. #89
    Professor
    atrasicarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Last Seen
    12-23-12 @ 05:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    2,227

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. Technology creates new jobs, and enables the mass production of things that were impossible or expensive to make before. What you are suggesting is often called the neo-luddite fallacy: It assumes that machines will simply replace workers and production will carry on the same as before. In actuality, the history of our technological development has been such that on the whole, industry uses automation to increase production rather than decrease labor. In fact, the number of jobs in America today is STAGGERINGLY higher than the number of jobs in America 50 years ago despite all of our technological progress...and the jobs today offer more pleasant conditions.
    You're wrong on two counts. First, production has gone up instead of labor going down because that's what our system and our society has forced it to do. One of the deepest held belief in our culture is that hard work is a good thing. We're unable to move back from the full time employment mentality, even though it's not necessary anymore. Second, there's a limit to how many jobs can be displaced, and we're just about there. A few hundred years ago, nearly everyone worked in the production sector of the economy. During the Industrial Revolution, a bunch of those jobs got taken over by technology, and the workers were displaced to the manufacturing sector (resulting in a bunch of unemployment in the transition). Then, during the first part of the 20th century, workers started to get displaced from the manufacturing sector into the service sector, which was one of the big contributors to the Great Depression. Now, the service sector is the biggest economic sector, and it's started to be phased out. Where are the workers going to go now? Are we going to invent an entirely new economic sector for them? Also, notice how the importance of each new sector has decreased. The production sector produces the basic necessities of life. The manufacturing sector produces technology and allows our modern standard of life. The service sector is largely a matter of convenience. How irrelevant would a fourth sector of the economy be to actual life? Do we really want to force people to work at such useless jobs just to survive?
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

  10. #90
    Professor
    atrasicarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Last Seen
    12-23-12 @ 05:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    2,227

    Re: Is Labor a Commodity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    If a kid drops out of school, the only one who has failed that kid is that kid. It's like saying if someone walks out of a restaurant hungry, the restaurant has failed them. That's idiotic. The education is available to them, they are the ones that refuse it. What's wrong with you that you can't comprehend personal responsibility?
    Imagine if the restaurant takes two hours to bring the guy his food, and when it does, it's half the size of the portion that was advertised. Of course the guy is going to walk out hungry. I understand personal responsibility much better than you seem to think, but it's irrelevant in a situation where the odds are stacked so badly against someone. For success to be determined by personal responsibility, you need equal opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Societies are self-perpetuating entities. They are started by people, they are continued by people and people are to blame for them, good or ill. Stop looking to pass the buck, people are responsible for themselves, period.
    Do you really think that the people in low income neighborhoods are inherently less capable than those born in rich neighborhoods? Do you really think that if you switched them, the ones originally from the low income neighborhood would still fail on average, and the ones originally from the high income neighborhood would still succeed? And you guys say we're the naive ones.
    For: legalizing drugs, gay marriage, abortion, guns, universal health care, public sector jobs, nuclear power, free education, progressive taxation
    Against: corporations, make-work, the 40 hour work week, intellectual property, imperialism, "homeland security," censorship

Page 9 of 22 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •