View Poll Results: Should we legalize all sex between consenting adults?

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Thread: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

  1. #171
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Everyone wants a portion of society to reflect their personal moral beliefs. People who insult people for having beliefs are annoying. Everyone has beliefs. And, again, I think there should be a place for most of what's been discussed in this thread. I just don't think it can be one-country-fits-all. Smaller geographical areas are needed.

    I'll give you an example of how I know that everyone wants society to reflect their own beliefs. No one teaches their kids to believe things that they have grown, over a lifetime of experience, to believe are wrong. The most liberally minded might encourage their kids not to be biased by anyone and to only think for themselves. But, even then, the kids will gravitate toward the way their parents think until faced with realities of life and experience that convince them of their own moral "truths" and most of those parents will be very disappointed if the kids end up being, by their definition, "narrow minded".

    Another example - you want people to believe what you believe. You try to make that happen by scoffing at people like me. I'm not trying to convince you to live by what I've learned. I'm just suggesting that we'd each be happier with some things not in view of our kid's schools or in our own face 24/7. I would personally choose a more conservative community to live in. You might personally choose Vegas. We should each have a choice.
    Everybody wants society to reflect their personal beliefs, but not everybody wants to enforce their personal beliefs through law.

  2. #172
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Everybody wants society to reflect their personal beliefs, but not everybody wants to enforce their personal beliefs through law.
    Good point. Hard to dispute. But, I'd suggest that we all want some of our personal beliefs enforced through law. There are just other personal beliefs that aren't as widely agreed upon. Most (not all) agree that things like murder, rape, theft, etc. are wrong and want that belief supported by law. Some (not all) believe that as long as a person isn't "hurting anyone" they should be left alone.

    I tend to agree that if a person isn't "hurting anyone" they should be left alone. But, I think when that person's destructive behavior (sex, heroin, self sabotage) becomes socially acceptable, it will hurt people in that society. And, law is one way we define socially acceptable behavior. Prioritizing enforcement (or not) is the scale we use to judge the "danger" to society. For example, I don't really have much of a problem with someone wanting to use heroine in private (although I do have problems with the social ills that arise around heroine trafficking). But, I certainly have a problem condoning heroine use as a society because I don't think encouraging people to think it's "ok" will be beneficial to any of us.

    Putting a foreign substance in your body (or someone elses) is enforced in a lot more areas than that of sex.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

  3. #173
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Good point. Hard to dispute. But, I'd suggest that we all want some of our personal beliefs enforced through law. There are just other personal beliefs that aren't as widely agreed upon. Most (not all) agree that things like murder, rape, theft, etc. are wrong and want that belief supported by law. Some (not all) believe that as long as a person isn't "hurting anyone" they should be left alone.

    I tend to agree that if a person isn't "hurting anyone" they should be left alone. But, I think when that person's destructive behavior (sex, heroin, self sabotage) becomes socially acceptable, it will hurt people in that society. And, law is one way we define socially acceptable behavior. Prioritizing enforcement (or not) is the scale we use to judge the "danger" to society. For example, I don't really have much of a problem with someone wanting to use heroine in private (although I do have problems with the social ills that arise around heroine trafficking). But, I certainly have a problem condoning heroine use as a society because I don't think encouraging people to think it's "ok" will be beneficial to any of us.

    Putting a foreign substance in your body (or someone elses) is enforced in a lot more areas than that of sex.
    The problem is, you cannot prove that making things like same sex marriage legal will have any negative effect on society, let alone will actually cause measurable harm. You only have your opinion.

    And unless someone can show some proof that certain things will cause measurable harm or have some negative effect on society, then you still have to treat them equally under the law, no matter what state they are in. Saying that a couple cannot enter into a legal contract based solely on their relative sexes is against the 14th Amendment.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #174
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Good point. Hard to dispute. But, I'd suggest that we all want some of our personal beliefs enforced through law. There are just other personal beliefs that aren't as widely agreed upon. Most (not all) agree that things like murder, rape, theft, etc. are wrong and want that belief supported by law. Some (not all) believe that as long as a person isn't "hurting anyone" they should be left alone.

    I tend to agree that if a person isn't "hurting anyone" they should be left alone. But, I think when that person's destructive behavior (sex, heroin, self sabotage) becomes socially acceptable, it will hurt people in that society. And, law is one way we define socially acceptable behavior. Prioritizing enforcement (or not) is the scale we use to judge the "danger" to society. For example, I don't really have much of a problem with someone wanting to use heroine in private (although I do have problems with the social ills that arise around heroine trafficking). But, I certainly have a problem condoning heroine use as a society because I don't think encouraging people to think it's "ok" will be beneficial to any of us.

    Putting a foreign substance in your body (or someone elses) is enforced in a lot more areas than that of sex.
    Things like murder, rape, theft, (sometimes) drug laws and so on are outlawed because of the threat they pose to our safety not because of the personal beliefs we have about them.

    However, for things that fall under the category of sexual freedom - like SSM or prostitution - restricting them is based only on personal belief. In other words, while laws against murder, rape, theft and so on are based in objective safety concerns, laws against SSM, prostitution, etc. are based in subjective personal beliefs.

  5. #175
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The problem is, you cannot prove that making things like same sex marriage legal will have any negative effect on society, let alone will actually cause measurable harm. You only have your opinion.

    And unless someone can show some proof that certain things will cause measurable harm or have some negative effect on society, then you still have to treat them equally under the law, no matter what state they are in. Saying that a couple cannot enter into a legal contract based solely on their relative sexes is against the 14th Amendment.
    I give it about 10 years until there is major whining for polygamy to be legally recognized.
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  6. #176
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    I give it about 10 years until there is major whining for polygamy to be legally recognized.
    And at that time we look at the potential measurable affects of that occurring. If those wanting it have a plan to overcome polygamy conflicting with the current marriage laws, I personally don't have an issue with polygamy. But the arguments for and against polygamy are not the same as those for same sex marriage. There are a lot of logistical issues that arise when you are talking about more than two people being involved in the marriage contract. And same sex marriage and polygamy also would not be at the same scrutiny level under the 14th.

    I believe that the 14th applies to same sex marriage due to the arguments for and against same sex marriage, and how same sex marriage compares, overall, to opposite sex marriage. That is the same way I would look at polygamy.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #177
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The problem is, you cannot prove that making things like same sex marriage legal will have any negative effect on society, let alone will actually cause measurable harm. You only have your opinion.

    And unless someone can show some proof that certain things will cause measurable harm or have some negative effect on society, then you still have to treat them equally under the law, no matter what state they are in. Saying that a couple cannot enter into a legal contract based solely on their relative sexes is against the 14th Amendment.
    Actually, I don't have any problems with legally allowing 2 people of the same sex to enter into a legal contract. I think calling it "marriage" is a social issue so falls under state or local jurisdiction instead of Federal. For one side to want to appear similar to the other doesn't make any sense to me, personally. Why call something a car if it's a tree? Why change the definition of a tree to include a car? If we're talking about benefits and heirs, it's a contract. No problem. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason it matters is because the government inserted itself into marriage via taxes, insurance benefits, etc. Get the gov't back out, and I don't know what difference it makes. Come to think of it, I think most so-called religious people have little respect for marriage anyway.

    As an adult, I'm happy to work with, work for, speak to, and buy from anyone of any sexual preferences whatsoever - if people are polite, I have no problems interacting at a personal level with anyone - people are people, and we all have our own issues. I will show love to and accept love from anybody. However, I don't think the Federal government should require everyone in the country to officially endorse what I believe to be unhealthy behavior (individually and socially). Most things are best left to individual states.

    Legalizing prostitution and allowing death benefits to apply contractually equally are not really very close to the same thing. But, I would prefer to see neither relationship flaunted as having been proved healthy in the long term. I can't prove certain traditionally unacceptable things won't have any negative effect on society or cause measurable harm any more than I can prove they will.
    The US is an odd ship. The captain yells out when he sees obtacles , but 535 individual propellers do the steering.

  8. #178
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The right to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right. Sleeping with someone of the same gender, your sister, a minor, a prostitute or who ever else is not a constitutional right. Citizens exercising their their 2nd amendment rights keeps the government on their toes and in check.
    Constitutionality does not dictate whether people will make the right decision. The Constitution once tried to get people to stop drinking. History shows people still chose to get hammered. Your argument is a fallacy.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #179
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Morals are not just what them thar bible thumpers thumping they Harry Potter books, trying to get you to join their church, knocking on your doors and singing praise Jebus. You do realize that almost all laws are based on someone's morals and that it is not restricted to just people with religious views but atheists as well? Laws against stealing, murder, rape and many others are based on someone's personal view of right and wrong.


    Moral - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
    a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior

    Please don't compare sexual freedom between consenting adults to stealing, murder and rape. That's just dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Everyone wants a portion of society to reflect their personal moral beliefs. People who insult people for having beliefs are annoying.
    I don't. I could care less what other people believe. All I ask is that I am given liberty to live my life without other people sticking their nose in my business. I'll do the same for them.


    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Everyone has beliefs. And, again, I think there should be a place for most of what's been discussed in this thread. I just don't think it can be one-country-fits-all. Smaller geographical areas are needed.
    That's not feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    I'll give you an example of how I know that everyone wants society to reflect their own beliefs. No one teaches their kids to believe things that they have grown, over a lifetime of experience, to believe are wrong. The most liberally minded might encourage their kids not to be biased by anyone and to only think for themselves. But, even then, the kids will gravitate toward the way their parents think until faced with realities of life and experience that convince them of their own moral "truths" and most of those parents will be very disappointed if the kids end up being, by their definition, "narrow minded".

    Another example - you want people to believe what you believe. You try to make that happen by scoffing at people like me. I'm not trying to convince you to live by what I've learned. I'm just suggesting that we'd each be happier with some things not in view of our kid's schools or in our own face 24/7. I would personally choose a more conservative community to live in. You might personally choose Vegas. We should each have a choice.
    I can't make anything happen, nor do I pretend that my opinion makes even the slightest difference. I don't come here to change minds because I know that is fruitless. Everyone else assumes that they are correct in their beliefs so what would be the point? But I am very frustrated that other people think they have the right to impose their beliefs on me or my family. And it frankly pisses me off when people think they should control how others choose to live. I may disagree with someone else's decisions, but because I want my liberty, I in turn give others that same respect.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  10. #180
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    Re: Should we legalize sexual freedom?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Actually, I don't have any problems with legally allowing 2 people of the same sex to enter into a legal contract. I think calling it "marriage" is a social issue so falls under state or local jurisdiction instead of Federal. For one side to want to appear similar to the other doesn't make any sense to me, personally. Why call something a car if it's a tree? Why change the definition of a tree to include a car? If we're talking about benefits and heirs, it's a contract. No problem. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason it matters is because the government inserted itself into marriage via taxes, insurance benefits, etc. Get the gov't back out, and I don't know what difference it makes. Come to think of it, I think most so-called religious people have little respect for marriage anyway.
    The government contract that covers the legal relationship between two adults at a certain level is known as marriage. It would be economically stupid to change this just because some people do not approve of having to share the word marriage with others that they do not feel fit that term. And it is wrong, along with economically stupid, to have two different contracts that set up legally the exact same benefits, rights, etc. for a committed couple just due to their relative sexes.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    As an adult, I'm happy to work with, work for, speak to, and buy from anyone of any sexual preferences whatsoever - if people are polite, I have no problems interacting at a personal level with anyone - people are people, and we all have our own issues. I will show love to and accept love from anybody. However, I don't think the Federal government should require everyone in the country to officially endorse what I believe to be unhealthy behavior (individually and socially). Most things are best left to individual states.
    Except that this means that people who get legally married would be in trouble if they had to move to a state that refused to recognize their marriage contract due to their sexes. What people don't understand is that some people have to move. What about servicemembers who are married in one state but must move to another state that doesn't recognize that couple's marriage, for whatever reason? They would face issues that they should not have to face just due to some arbitrary decision on who should and should not be their legal partner by the state in which they live. Why should this be acceptable?

    DADT is officially repealed September 20th. This means that servicemembers can openly have same sex relationships. It also means that they can marry members of the same sex. Once DOMA goes down, the federal government will recognize those marriages as well. What happens to them if in 5 years, DOMA has gone away but states can refuse to recognize their marriages as legal? What if they are stationed in a state that does not recognize same sex marriages? They will still be discriminated against for the sex of the partner.

    And leaving such decisions in the hands of each state would mean that we would have to also allow interracial marriages to be left up to each state as well. Interfaith marriages would be another issue. States should not be allowed to discriminate just because they are smaller government entities than the federal government.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenvilleGrows View Post
    Legalizing prostitution and allowing death benefits to apply contractually equally are not really very close to the same thing. But, I would prefer to see neither relationship flaunted as having been proved healthy in the long term. I can't prove certain traditionally unacceptable things won't have any negative effect on society or cause measurable harm any more than I can prove they will.
    Legalizing prostitution is going to take a lot more fighting than same sex marriage. There are certainly issues that will come from legalizing prostitution and a good plan would be needed for dealing with those issues and ensuring that the legalization is made in a way where the benefits of the legalization are seen. Legalizing prostitution should probably stay on the state level or lower, but I could still see a legitimate argument for legalizing it if it did become an issue that went to the SCOTUS. I think one big issue with prostitution is that it is at the state level, despite some local governments wanting to legalize prostitution.

    But prostitution is not the same as same sex marriage, which is what I think you are talking about with the contract death benefits. For one thing, same sex marriage involves a lot more than death benefits. Having a legal marriage contract involves a lot of everyday legal things that many take for granted. These legal issues affect some couples more than others. I know a lot about how legal marriage can affect your everyday life because I am a military spouse and in the reserves. I live in a house based on my legal marriage status. I am entitled to certain benefits I use throughout the year due to my legal marriage. My husband is entitled to certain benefits throughout the year due to our legal marriage.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 09-11-11 at 01:33 PM. Reason: spelling mistake
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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