View Poll Results: Is alcohol abuse a disability; do you agree or disagree with the EEOC?

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  • I agree alcohol abuse is a disability, I agree with the EEOC position

    4 9.09%
  • I agree alcohol abuse is a disability, I disagree with the EEOC position

    3 6.82%
  • I disagree that alcohol abuse is a disability, I agree with the EEOC position

    2 4.55%
  • I disagree that alcohol abuse is a disability, I disagree with the EEOC position

    25 56.82%
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    3 6.82%
  • Other (Explain please)

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Thread: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    This is a private company with their own private policies. This could be alcoholism, drug use / abuse or other self administered problem. Second, does a company have a right to put their own policies out especially ones that protect not only their employees but others lives? Think of the lawsuit of a reformed alcoholic who falls off the wagon who was forced to be give the keys by the EEOC policy, who kills a family of three in an accident? Is it a better policy to force the keys back into their hands or is it a better policy to remove that option and keep them employed elsewhere?
    This company policy is actually quite dangerous. Since the issue isn't that the self-reporting drunk won't be allowed to drive, but that they'll be demoted and handed a lower-paying position in exchange for their honesty and their struggle against their addiction, this creates incentive for alcoholics to stay in the closet -- which keeps them on the road, and endangers the rest of us.

    Just some food for thought.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The problem with most of the posts that I see here is that folks do not understand the difference between being an alcoholic and acting on being an alcoholic. Being an alcoholic is not a choice. Acting on being an alcoholic is. In this context, at the bare basics of the issue, alcoholism certainly meets the criteria for being classified as a disease. One does not recover. One is always an alcoholic in recovery.

    It is certainly discriminatory to prevent an alcoholic in recovery from having a job as a driver. I thought, in this country, we gave consequences for behaviors that were done, not behaviors that we think might happen. Further, non-alcoholics can be risk factors to driving while drunk, also. Prohibiting an active alcoholic... or ANYONE who incurs any kind of alcohol-related driving infraction, makes sense. Preventing someone who identifies having been in recovery for a number of years is idiotic.
    What if someone admits they're a pedophile but they've never acted on it and they're getting therapy for it. Should they then be allowed a job working with children? It's easy to condemn the company, but guess who's going to be liable if the alcoholic gets into an accident. I guarantee that the fact that the company knew a person is an alcoholic when they made him a driver would come out at a trial and it would be held against the company.

    BTW, are alcoholics responsible for their choices?
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  3. #63
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Prohibiting an active alcoholic... or ANYONE who incurs any kind of alcohol-related driving infraction, makes sense. Preventing someone who identifies having been in recovery for a number of years is idiotic.
    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    What if someone admits they're a pedophile but they've never acted on it and they're getting therapy for it. Should they then be allowed a job working with children? It's easy to condemn the company, but guess who's going to be liable if the alcoholic gets into an accident. I guarantee that the fact that the company knew a person is an alcoholic when they made him a driver would come out at a trial and it would be held against the company.

    BTW, are alcoholics responsible for their choices?
    X-Factor hits the point I wanted to make. The company operates in a legal environment beset with precedents where companies have been sued for knowing information and not acting appropriately (decided with the benefit of hindsight) and also for not knowing when they should have known something. The company isn't being idiotic, it's reacting rationally to the legal system which will hold it responsible for its management decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    It's bad policy to allow employers to fire employees who seek treatment for addiction because it will discourage addicts from seeking treatment. The end result will be that the addict will continue to hide their addiction and continue driving which endangers the public safety. Employers should be allowed to shift the employee into a job with the closest similar paying job that they are qualified to do even if that means a pay cut
    This position presumes so much. Jobs are usually not vacant and waiting for someone like this to fill them. This job shifting likely entails either a game of musical chairs where people get bumped out of their jobs to make room for this truck driver or it involves some form of inefficient job sharing. If the response takes the form of musical chairs, then innocent people get demoted to lower paying positions. What did they do to deserve a demotion? If the response is job sharing, then the company is being forced to pay for make-work job tasks for this driver. The only fair solution is to offer him the next job opening that becomes available and for which he is qualified. This way no employees have to bear the brunt of being displaced and the company doesn't have to create work, or shift work, for this man to do that was already being done efficiently by other employees.

  4. #64
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    What if someone admits they're a pedophile but they've never acted on it and they're getting therapy for it. Should they then be allowed a job working with children? It's easy to condemn the company, but guess who's going to be liable if the alcoholic gets into an accident. I guarantee that the fact that the company knew a person is an alcoholic when they made him a driver would come out at a trial and it would be held against the company.
    Firstly, I am not condemning the company, but I am condemning the dogmatism of just saying, "if you are an alcoholic, even if you do not drink, you cannot drive for our company." Since public risk is the factor, perhaps auto insurance companies should not insure folks who have alcohol dependence as a diagnosis... even if they have never drank and driven. Or, just to make things simpler, any individual with that diagnosis, regardless of behavior, should be prohibited from driving forever. Make sense?

    As far as your pedophile example goes, it depends. What is the risk factor? The therapist would be able to determine that and act accordingly.

    BTW, are alcoholics responsible for their choices?
    Absolutely and unequivocally.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    X-Factor hits the point I wanted to make. The company operates in a legal environment beset with precedents where companies have been sued for knowing information and not acting appropriately (decided with the benefit of hindsight) and also for not knowing when they should have known something. The company isn't being idiotic, it's reacting rationally to the legal system which will hold it responsible for its management decisions.
    So, you support the position that one can be given consequences for a behavior that they have not done?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #66
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Firstly, I am not condemning the company, but I am condemning the dogmatism of just saying, "if you are an alcoholic, even if you do not drink, you cannot drive for our company." Since public risk is the factor, perhaps auto insurance companies should not insure folks who have alcohol dependence as a diagnosis... even if they have never drank and driven. Or, just to make things simpler, any individual with that diagnosis, regardless of behavior, should be prohibited from driving forever. Make sense?

    As far as your pedophile example goes, it depends. What is the risk factor? The therapist would be able to determine that and act accordingly.



    Absolutely and unequivocally.
    Well, I would argue that a school who hired someone they know to be a pedo is being extremely reckless. I think the same is true of a trucking company who hires someone to be a driver that they know to have a chemical dependency. Would you feel the same way if we were talking about a school bus driver instead of a trucker? I do have an idea for a compromise though. How about, in exchange for reinstating the person as a driver, the EEOC agrees to indemnify the trucking company if the guy causes an accident while on the job? What do you think?
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by riverdad View Post
    this position presumes so much. Jobs are usually not vacant and waiting for someone like this to fill them. This job shifting likely entails either a game of musical chairs where people get bumped out of their jobs to make room for this truck driver or it involves some form of inefficient job sharing. If the response takes the form of musical chairs, then innocent people get demoted to lower paying positions. What did they do to deserve a demotion? If the response is job sharing, then the company is being forced to pay for make-work job tasks for this driver. The only fair solution is to offer him the next job opening that becomes available and for which he is qualified. This way no employees have to bear the brunt of being displaced and the company doesn't have to create work, or shift work, for this man to do that was already being done efficiently by other employees.
    exactly !

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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    So, you support the position that one can be given consequences for a behavior that they have not done?
    Would you hire the person who admits to pedophilic inclinations to babysit your son or daughter?

    The company management has it's own interests it has to protect. If it comes down to protecting my interests versus insuring fair treatment for someone else, then I'll look after my interests first.

    I won't hire the admitted pedophile who hasn't acted on his inclinations to babysit my daughters. I'd rather suffer the hit to my integrity than gamble on a very bad outcome. The expected value calculation that I make for myself is this:

    -Small hit to integrity with 100% certainty - I feel for the pedophile - he did the right thing. I feel bad for punishing him for doing the right thing.
    -The chance of him molesting my daughters is probably remote but the damage that would occur from that molestation would be huge. The cost of the harm would fall on innocents, not on me, though I would suffer guilt for making the decision I did and allowing the pedophile to babysit my daughters knowing full well that he had these inclinations. Keeping true to my integrity would come at too high a cost to me and others.

    Yeah, it's a ****ty deal for the driver. Until the legal environment changes and companies are not held responsible for the actions of their employees and not held responsible for making the wrong decisions or being expected to have known something that they didn't know, the company is doing the right thing.

    If the driver disagreed with the company's decision he could have asked for severance and found a job with another trucking company without disclosing to them that he was an alcoholic. Alternatively he could have sought treatment on his own without making disclosure to the company.

  9. #69
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Well, I would argue that a school who hired someone they know to be a pedo is being extremely reckless. I think the same is true of a trucking company who hires someone to be a driver that they know to have a chemical dependency.
    And I would disagree with both on principle, unless there was cause that significant risk was involved. I do not believe that someone should be punished for a behavior that they have not done unless the imminent risk of doing that behavior is clear.

    Would you feel the same way if we were talking about a school bus driver instead of a trucker?
    Yes I would.

    I do have an idea for a compromise though. How about, in exchange for reinstating the person as a driver, the EEOC agrees to indemnify the trucking company if the guy causes an accident while on the job? What do you think?
    No. However, I would agree that the EEOC should remove their objections if the individual refuses treatment or does not complete treatment, and should subsidize all costs for the company to do random alcohol screens.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #70
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Would you hire the person who admits to pedophilic inclinations to babysit your son or daughter?

    The company management has it's own interests it has to protect. If it comes down to protecting my interests versus insuring fair treatment for someone else, then I'll look after my interests first.

    I won't hire the admitted pedophile who hasn't acted on his inclinations to babysit my daughters. I'd rather suffer the hit to my integrity than gamble on a very bad outcome. The expected value calculation that I make for myself is this:

    -Small hit to integrity with 100% certainty - I feel for the pedophile - he did the right thing. I feel bad for punishing him for doing the right thing.
    -The chance of him molesting my daughters is probably remote but the damage that would occur from that molestation would be huge. The cost of the harm would fall on innocents, not on me, though I would suffer guilt for making the decision I did and allowing the pedophile to babysit my daughters knowing full well that he had these inclinations. Keeping true to my integrity would come at too high a cost to me and others.
    The pedophile argument is actually a poor one. Remember, we are talking about risk factors. The pedophile argument only works if the driver has alcohol sitting next to him. An important factor in staying in recovery is avoiding triggers. You don't put a pedophile with kids, nor do you put an alcoholic with alcohol. A pedophile can work with adults. An alcoholic can drive. Both need treatment. You take away the risk factors and you reduce the danger. These two examples are not equal at all.

    Yeah, it's a ****ty deal for the driver. Until the legal environment changes and companies are not held responsible for the actions of their employees and not held responsible for making the wrong decisions or being expected to have known something that they didn't know, the company is doing the right thing.

    If the driver disagreed with the company's decision he could have asked for severance and found a job with another trucking company without disclosing to them that he was an alcoholic. Alternatively he could have sought treatment on his own without making disclosure to the company.
    The company is firing someone for a behavior they have not done, in a position that does not put that driver in a position that is triggering. I could understand this if the driver had a DUI, or come into work drunk. Neither of those things occurred. I can even understand not allowing him to drive while he is receiving treatment, but if he completes successfully, there is no reason to prevent his return.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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