View Poll Results: Is alcohol abuse a disability; do you agree or disagree with the EEOC?

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  • I agree alcohol abuse is a disability, I agree with the EEOC position

    4 9.09%
  • I agree alcohol abuse is a disability, I disagree with the EEOC position

    3 6.82%
  • I disagree that alcohol abuse is a disability, I agree with the EEOC position

    2 4.55%
  • I disagree that alcohol abuse is a disability, I disagree with the EEOC position

    25 56.82%
  • Rutabega

    3 6.82%
  • Other (Explain please)

    7 15.91%
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Thread: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

  1. #251
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Me? Nope. Ive yet to see the 'alcohol gene'. Ive seen LOTS of people who come from families of absolute T-totalers that have become raging alcoholics. Environment...self esteem. Its seldom very hard to find where the problems originate.
    I'll have to see what I can find, but I'm pretty sure that those predisposed towards behaviors like alcoholism, i.e. addictive personalities, do have common genetic markers. The problem comes in along the same lines as other genetic conditions. Being predisposed towards something does not mean it will happen. Only that the odds are greater. Likewise, not having the genetic predisposition does not mean a condition will not happen. Only that the odds are less.

  2. #252
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Which one do you think can't possibly be a disability?
    I think you know my position on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    From the Americans with Disability Act:
    Which is dumb. Druggies getting the same protection as someone with a real disability is an insult to the disabled.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  3. #253
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Let's look at some case law which shows the range of liability which extends to employers for the conduct of their employees:

    Osborne v. Lyles (1992), 63 Ohio St. 3d 326, 587 N.E. 2d 825: An off-duty Cleveland police officer who was involved in an altercation following a traffic accident in his personal vehicle was held to be within the scope of employment. The court placed significant reliance on a Cleveland police manual which essentially stated that officers are deemed to always be on duty, despite their normal working hours.

    A truck driver was held to be within the scope of employment while delivering merchandise inside a garage owned by a customer, notwithstanding instructions by the employer which prohibited driving beyond the street curb during deliveries. Gulla v. Straus (1950), 154 Ohio St. 193, 93 N.E. 2d 662.

    Negligent Entrustment: The owner/lessor of a motor vehicle may be held liable if it is established that: (1) the motor vehicle was driven with permission of the owner, (2) the driver was in fact incompetent, and (3) the owner (defendant) knew such facts as to imply at the time of entrustment that the entrustee was unlicensed or incompetent or unqualified. Gulla v. Strauss (1950), 154 Ohio St. 193.

    Express Permission: To sustain an action for negligent entrustment of a vehicle, a plaintiff must show that the vehicle was driven with the owner’s permission and authority[.] St. Amand v. Spurling, et al., 2006 Ohio 4391 (2nd Dist).


    Here is a ruling from the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals which backs the trucking company's position:


    John Doe, M.D. (Dr. Doe) appeals a decision of the district court granting summary judgment to University of Maryland Medical System Corporation (UMMSC)1 on his claims under Sec. 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, 29 U.S.C.A. Sec. 794 (West Supp.1994), and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), 42 U.S.C.A. Sec. 12132 (West Supp.1994). The district court reasoned that Dr. Doe, who is a carrier of the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), is not an otherwise "qualified individual" with a disability. Because we agree with the district court that Dr. Doe poses a significant risk to patients at UMMSC that cannot be eliminated by reasonable accommodation, we affirm



    Did this physician ever infect anyone with HIV during a surgical operation? No, he didn't. Yet he was denied permission to operate on patients because he did pose a risk to public safety and there was no way for the hospital to eliminate that risk by reasonable accommodation.

    What happens when an accident happens and courts must assign blame. Look at this case of a baseball bat company being held liable for the death of a pitcher who was stuck by a ball that was batted by the player at bat.


    While pitching in an American Legion baseball game on July 25, 2003, the eighteen year-old plaintiff was struck in the head by a batted ball that was hit using H&B’s model CB-13 aluminum bat. Tragically, plaintiff died from his injuries. In 2006, Brandon’s parents sued H&B, claiming H&B’s model CB-13 aluminum bat was in a defective condition because of the alleged enhanced risks associated with its use: It increased the velocity speed of a batted ball when it left the bat, thus decreasing infielders’ reaction times, which allegedly resulted in a greater number of high energy batted balls in the infield.

    The matter was tried in October, 2009, and the design defect and failure to warn claims were submitted to the jury, which concluded that the model CB-13 aluminum bat was not designed defectively, but determined the bat was in a defective condition due to H&B’s failure to warn of the enhanced risks associated with its use. They awarded plaintiffs an $850,000 verdict on their failure to warn claim. Defendant appealed.


    The company put stickers on their baseball bats stating that the bats produce faster velocity in balls hit with the bats that this warning wasn't sufficient and that the company should have spread this message far and wide through the use of various advertising mediums.

    This trucking company knows that relapse rates for treated alcoholics are on the order of 60% and it knows that the law holds companies to standards which make it nearly impossible for the company to indemnify themselves against the liability caused by their employees. There is a heightened probability of alcoholics driving drunk compared to non-alcoholics and this trucking company now knows that this driver is an alcoholic, so under the legal doctrines of Expressed Permission and Negligent Entrustment, this company is liable for the harms caused by their alcoholic driver should he cause an accident.

    This company has legal precedent, via the Univ. of Maryland case to remove this driver from a position where he presents a harm to the public that cannot be negated by reasonable accommodation.

  4. #254
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    So NO I didn't make it up. Yes I did bring up a supposition lacking full knowledge of how the EEOC applies the ADA and the language of the ADA. To make it up is to call it fact. I did not do that. I did not say that they indeed had that policy. And hell for that matter they could have had that policy, illegal or not. Even if the policy was illegal, then the driver could still have violated the policy. Period. Granted that is still grounds for legal action and all, but you can't say for sure that he didn't violate the company policy unless you can show the company policy.

    I really doubt that there is anyone here on this board, short of a lawyer and even then I am doubtful, that knows all the regulations and all the rulings of all various industries and agencies. This is why big companies have teams of lawyers and small businesses are constantly getting in trouble for stuff that rest of us just go "Wha..?" over. And again, I ask, has there ever been a case where a court ruled on an alcoholic driver who hasn't knowingly to others driven under the influence and been fired or demoted before? If not there is no direct precedence and if the courts should rule that the business was in its rights then such a policy would NOT be illegal. This would be the first legal test of this specific application. And even if there is precedence, it wouldn't be the first time that a court ruled against precedence, although I doubt that they would. Even if we believe that something should and would be covered under law, the courts are the final word on that.
    Your position defies belief. In one paragraph you argue that they didn't know the law or just ignored, and then in the next you talk about their team of lawyers. The policy you described would clearly be illegal, and yet you continue to argue that it might not be. Then you want to insist until someone combs court cases and proves you wrong, your argument holds waters in spite of its' obvious holes.

    Alcoholism is a disability. This is clear. Policies which prohibit people with disabilities from holding a job they can perform are illegal. This is equally clear. The only issue here is if they can demote the man instead of allowing him to continue driving.





    My "issues" matter in so far as they were in response to the OP poll. When one puts out that kind of poll with whether or not you agree with something then the opinions as to why, are valid responses. I agree that science does have a say. Science had a say in removing the "Mental Disorder" label from Sadism and Masochism. The labels are not set in concrete. Bolted on with steel maybe. But still changeable. So the facts don't show that alcoholism is a disability. The facts as currently viewed support that position, or maybe you can say that the facts currently show that alcoholism is a disability, but that one word makes a big difference. The facts previously showed that Masochism was a mental disorder, now they show that it is a social deviancy.
    You are allowed to have your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Medical science has shown that alcoholism is a disability.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #255
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post

    Alcoholism is a disability. This is clear.


    You are allowed to have your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. Medical science has shown that alcoholism is a disability.
    No it hasn't. The most medical science has proven is that some people are more predisposed to addiction than others. That's it.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  6. #256
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Me? Nope. Ive yet to see the 'alcohol gene'. Ive seen LOTS of people who come from families of absolute T-totalers that have become raging alcoholics. Environment...self esteem. Its seldom very hard to find where the problems originate.
    Have you ever heard of recessive genes? Ever hear about attributes that are the result of more than one gene?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    I think you know my position on this.
    No, I don't
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #257
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    No it hasn't. The most medical science has proven is that some people are more predisposed to addiction than others. That's it.
    Sure it has. Medical science has shown that alcoholism can result in damage that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of an individual. That's what a disability is
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #258
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Have you ever heard of recessive genes? Ever hear about attributes that are the result of more than one gene?



    No, I don't
    lol well I suggest that you read the thread, because I have made my points abundantly clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Sure it has. Medical science has shown that alcoholism can result in damage that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of an individual. That's what a disability is
    Just because disability has been redefined to protect people who have done harm to themselves doesn't mean they are actually disabled. And even if an alcoholic is really disabled, he or she still shouldn't be able to operate heavy machinery which would put the public in danger.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  9. #259
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I'll have to see what I can find, but I'm pretty sure that those predisposed towards behaviors like alcoholism, i.e. addictive personalities, do have common genetic markers. The problem comes in along the same lines as other genetic conditions. Being predisposed towards something does not mean it will happen. Only that the odds are greater. Likewise, not having the genetic predisposition does not mean a condition will not happen. Only that the odds are less.
    Lots of good excuses we give to folks for wreckless and irresponsible behavior. The reality? Most alcoholics dont drink to satisfy a conjoined gene or out of some form of disease. They become alcoholics because the high lets them escape for a while. You dont have to look very deeply into their personal history to find the social triggers.

  10. #260
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    Re: Is alcohol abuse a "disability"?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    Sometimes it's the regulations that run rampant.
    Sometimes.

    There may be other protections that can be enacted BUT they aren't. By that statement you seem to be acknowledging that by allowing this guy to drive the company is putting themselves into an added risk butit doesn't seem to matter to you.
    Nope. You are reading what you want, but not what I'm saying. The company made a choice. There are other protections that CAN be enacted, but they CHOSE not to, not they AREN'T.
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