View Poll Results: Is this raffle in extremely bad taste?

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  • Yes, the republicans should be ashamed

    17 29.82%
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    34 59.65%
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Thread: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

  1. #81
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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Extremely bad taste, a hunting rifle or a shotgun is one thing, but this murder machine come with 3 magazines.
    It's a killing machine.

    Murder is a misuse of the item.

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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's a killing machine.

    Murder is a misuse of the item.
    Six of one, half a dozen of another.

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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    I bet Giffords would aplluade these folks continueing to excercise their constitutional rights, as proof that no matter how many crazy assholes there are in the world, our freedoms will not be taken away from us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    [...] On a side note, this would be less troubling if it were some other group holding the raffle. Say the local chapter of the NRA. Somehow it is worse because it's the GOP. It feels like a political move and not just fundraising.
    Bingo, you hit it there. One can't ignore the political undertones to this. Five years down the road I really don't think anyone would pause at a raffle of a gun by the party. But seriously, they need to get a clue.
    I agree with that. They do need to get a clue. Of course, we have the more frightening alternative is that they know exactly what they are doing and want to get this sort of reaction.
    Bingo, you hit it there. The GOP/Tea Party has been very 'in-your-face' as of late, and this certainly seems to be a premeditated example of it.

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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    [...] If I am not mistaken the State passed a law this year on allowing concealed weapons without permit. [...]
    You are mistaken. Or, Arizona has not updated their website. See Concealed Weapons & Permits - Arizona Department of Public Safety

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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    You are mistaken. Or, Arizona has not updated their website. See Concealed Weapons & Permits - Arizona Department of Public Safety
    Nope, website not uptodate.


    Arizona Gun Law: Concealed Weapons Allowed Without Permit Under New Law
    Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others' concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.

    The measure takes effect 90 days after the current legislative session ends, which likely puts the effective date in July or August.

    Arizona's concealed-weapon law takes effect


    Today is the day gun-rights advocates have had in their sights for a long time.

    Starting today, Arizona residents at least 21 years old can carry a concealed weapon without a permit.


    The change is part of a broad weapons law by state Sen. Russell Pearce passed by the state Legislature in April that eases restrictions on concealed carry and stiffens penalties for committing a crime while carrying a concealed weapon.

    The law is one of many passed by the state Legislature this past session that go into effect today.

    Arizona joins Alaska and Vermont as the only states to allow concealed weapons without a permit.

    So I did remember correctly. Doesn't matter so much to me, I had a permit under the old law.
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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Glock doesn't build Glocks with the intention that they be used for murder. They are intended to be used for lawful purposes. That someone abused one doesn't taint the whole brand name.

    The real diff between Mustangs and Glocks, or cars and guns?
    1. Cars kill lots more people than guns. 2. One is Constitutionally protected, the other isn't. Guess which.
    I submit a honest answer to your question:

    1. Cars are designed, manufactured, and sold with the intent of transporting people. Alternatively, they can occasionally be used in other applications (racing, or as a weapon).

    2. Guns are designed, manufactured, and sold with the intent of killing living things. That a particular gun may never be used for that purpose has no bearing on the original intent of the device. Alternatively, they can occasionally be used in other applications (target shooting, or, I presume, to brandish at burglars or muggers {not a recommended activity, I've heard}).

  8. #88
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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    I submit a honest answer to your question:

    1. Cars are designed, manufactured, and sold with the intent of transporting people. Alternatively, they can occasionally be used in other applications (racing, or as a weapon).

    2. Guns are designed, manufactured, and sold with the intent of killing living things. That a particular gun may never be used for that purpose has no bearing on the original intent of the device. Alternatively, they can occasionally be used in other applications (target shooting, or, I presume, to brandish at burglars or muggers {not a recommended activity, I've heard}).
    You don't appear to know a lot about guns.

    Approximately 99.98% of guns are never used in the commission of a crime... fewer still in the commission of murder. Most firearms are never used for anything BUT target shooting, hunting, etc.

    There are many firearms that are purpose-built for target shooting and are not intended for any other purpose, and would make poor hunting or self-defense weapons. Olympic target pistols come to mind.
    There are many firearms that are purpose-built for hunting, (yes including handguns like the TC contender), which would make poor general-combat or general-self-protection weapons. Deer rifles with 3 round magazines and scopes come to mind.

    Glock makes (among other things) a class of pistols that are specifically tailored for competition shooting events, where concealability and stopping power are not issues and reduced-charge ammo is used to minimize recoil and re-targeting time... these would be less than suitable for self-defense.

    Yes, Glock also makes pistols that are specifically designed for police, military and self-defense uses.

    But they don't make them with intent to use in murder.


    Incidently, "brandishing" is a term that usually indicates unlawful and negligent display in a manner causing bystanders to fear for their safety. Pointing a gun at a mugger is a different thing, and quite commonly results in the mugger running away with no shots fired. (see Kleck study.)
    Last edited by Goshin; 09-03-11 at 03:22 PM.

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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Nope, website not uptodate.

    Arizona Gun Law: Concealed Weapons Allowed Without Permit Under New Law
    Favoring the constitutional right to bear arms over others' concerns about gun safety, Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit. [...]
    Actually the website is up to date kinda/sorta; the change in Arizona law simply removes the illegality for carrying concealed without a permit (assuming no other laws are broken while carrying concealed, then carrying concealed without a permit is illegal). Permits are still issued, and a permit is still required for concealed carry into liquor-serving establishments (see http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1108s.pdf -- dunno if that is final version of the bill that was signed into law).

    PHOENIX -- Arizona is on the verge of becoming the third state in the nation to let just about any adult carry a concealed weapon.Without a word of debate, the House voted 36-19 on Wednesday to eliminate the criminal penalties that now exist if someone has a hidden gun without first getting the necessary state permit. [...] Police could still arrest those who have concealed weapons but no permit under the new. [...] Concealed weapons bill goes to Brewer for signature - Your West Valley News: Valley & State: state, permit, gun, arizona, concealed
    So, you can still get the permit, but if you don't and you're not breaking the law while carrying concealed then that's okay -- if the cop that shakes you down says it is, I suppose. Odd that the AZ DPS is not publicizing that fact on their CCW website.... (NRA website is having problems, would be interesting to see if they are advertising it on their state CCW pages (at least one other website is not).

  10. #90
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    Re: GOP's Gun Raffle In Giffords' District Sparks Hot Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl, replying to Goshin View Post
    I submit a honest answer to your question:

    1. Cars are designed, manufactured, and sold with the intent of transporting people. Alternatively, they can occasionally be used in other applications (racing, or as a weapon).

    2. Guns are designed, manufactured, and sold with the intent of killing living things. That a particular gun may never be used for that purpose has no bearing on the original intent of the device. Alternatively, they can occasionally be used in other applications (target shooting, or, I presume, to brandish at burglars or muggers {not a recommended activity, I've heard}).
    [1] You don't appear to know a lot about guns.

    [2] Approximately 99.98% of guns are never used in the commission of a crime... fewer still in the commission of murder. Most firearms are never used for anything BUT target shooting, hunting, etc.

    There are many firearms that are purpose-built for target shooting and are not intended for any other purpose, and would make poor hunting or self-defense weapons. Olympic target pistols come to mind.
    There are many firearms that are purpose-built for hunting, (yes including handguns like the TC contender), which would make poor general-combat or general-self-protection weapons. Deer rifles with 3 round magazines and scopes come to mind.

    Glock makes (among other things) a class of pistols that are specifically tailored for competition shooting events, where concealability and stopping power are not issues and reduced-charge ammo is used to minimize recoil and re-targeting time... these would be less than suitable for self-defense.

    Yes, Glock also makes pistols that are specifically designed for police, military and self-defense uses.

    But they don't make them with intent to use in murder.

    Incidently, "brandishing" is a term that usually indicates unlawful and negligent display in a manner causing bystanders to fear for their safety. Pointing a gun at a mugger is a different thing, and quite commonly results in the mugger running away with no shots fired. (see Kleck study.)
    1. Ah, a personal insult right out of the gate. This place is going to be fun

    2. I wasn't talking about crime, was I? Nope, rereading my post to you above, I was definitely not talking about crime. Nor was the focus of my post Olympic target pistols, deer rifles, or even Glocks (hardly the choice of a handgun connoisseur, I can certainly tell you). The focus of my post was the purpose of a firearm in general; the why and how it came to be. The firearm is the descendent of the arrow, the spear, and the club. It is intended to kill living things. Now while your strawman may think that killing someone or something is murder, and while it sometimes can be, making such a blanket representation is indicative of an illogical argument.

    And claiming that a Mustang is the same thing as a Glock, or actually more deadlier than a Glock, is simply a silly argument; one does not have to be in favor or opposition of one or the other to see that.

    Incidentally, "brandishing" is a term that was chosen for it's colorfulness. "Waving about", "pointing", and "threatening" would be viable synonyms in the context intended. The theory I've heard, and subscribe to, is that if you have the legal basis to point a weapon at someone, you also have the legal basis to pull the trigger. Better to pull the trigger than be taken by surprise by something that you didn't read in a study.... (like the mugger's accomplice hitting you in the back of the head while the mugger is admiring your Glock).

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