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Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

Should the woman's choice dictate that the man has to pay child support?

  • Should the woman be responsible for her own choice to not abort?

    Votes: 11 34.4%

  • Should the man be forced to pay child support due to the choice of the woman?

    Votes: 10 31.3%

  • Other option?

    Votes: 11 34.4%
  • Total voters
    32
Tigger said:
It's only in the last two centuries that marriage has been anything other than an arranged concept in the vast majority of society, yet things worked out fairly well for the millenia before that when arranged marriages, often based on politics and money more than anything else were the prevailing relationship model.
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Together forever for love is a new concept?

Wow - were you high in psychology, history and art class?

Maybe for some rich people it was about 'status' or for religious people it was about 'the offspring' - but that doesn't dominate the history of marriage throughout the world.
 
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Tigger said:
Remember that in my mind a marriage is much more a business proposition than a relationship based on emotional attachment and "love".
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But we all know that children that are raised in loving and stable households fare better in life. Isn't successful children the product that this business is trying to produce?
 
Paschendale said:
But we all know that children that are raised in loving and stable households fare better in life. Isn't successful children the product that this business is trying to produce?
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Not in Tigger's underdeveloped world.

I'm just a baby-making machine and seeing as how I can't have children anymore I wonder if he thinks I should be put down like a lame horse. :D
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Together forever for love is a new concept? Wow - were you high in psychology, history and art class? Maybe for some rich people it was about 'status' or for religious people it was about 'the offspring' - but that doesn't dominate the history of marriage throughout the world.
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It is a new concept as the basis for most marriages. The real beginnings of the concept in Western Civilization can be traced back to the work "Le Mort D'Arthur" by Sir Thomas Mallory in the 13th Century. For those who are unaware this is the work from which we derive the Arthurian legends. Prior to that there is no significant existance of the concept of Romantic Love as a basis for a relationship in western culture.

Thankfully I never had to take Psych or Art classes (beyond elementary school art anyway).

Paschendale said:
But we all know that children that are raised in loving and stable households fare better in life. Isn't successful children the product that this business is trying to produce?
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Do we? Are today's children really better off than we were in my generation or before? I don't think so. I really believe that today's children are coddled and that they will eventually end up growing into spineless piles of mush as they near adulthood.

Aunt Spiker said:
Not in Tigger's underdeveloped world.

I'm just a baby-making machine and seeing as how I can't have children anymore I wonder if he thinks I should be put down like a lame horse. :D
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Not at all. There's always cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, etc... that needs to be done.
 
Tigger said:
It is a new concept as the basis for most marriages. The real beginnings of the concept in Western Civilization can be traced back to the work "Le Mort D'Arthur" by Sir Thomas Mallory in the 13th Century. For those who are unaware this is the work from which we derive the Arthurian legends. Prior to that there is no significant existance of the concept of Romantic Love as a basis for a relationship in western culture.

Thankfully I never had to take Psych or Art classes (beyond elementary school art anyway).
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There's plenty of evidence - but since you've never studied history through psychology or art you have no clue about it. :D

Not at all. There's always cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, etc... that needs to be done.
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Indeed - my husband cooked dinner tonight while I built the casing for my new kitchen windows.

Role reversal: it's not just for the bedroom. ;)
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Indeed - my husband cooked dinner tonight while I built the casing for my new kitchen windows.

Role reversal: it's not just for the bedroom. ;)
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It's not for the kitchen, the shop or the bedroom so far as I'm concerned. It's the direct route and express lane to Hell so far as I'm concerned.
 
Tigger said:
It's not for the kitchen, the shop or the bedroom so far as I'm concerned. It's the direct route and express lane to Hell so far as I'm concerned.
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Why don't you move to Saudi Arabia then? You seem to share more values with them than you do with America.
 
Um... why do you keep starting new threads on the same issue? You've created this thread at least 3-4 times now. What's up with that?
 
Aderleth said:
Um... why do you keep starting new threads on the same issue? You've created this thread at least 3-4 times now. What's up with that?
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He might be unhappy about having to pay child support :)
 
rathi said:
Why don't you move to Saudi Arabia then? You seem to share more values with them than you do with America.
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What if I told you that I believe a lot (not all) of their values are the same values that my family helped found this nation upon and that we have abandoned in the last century and a half? I believe that what's holding this country back and bringing us down right now is the fact that we have advanced scientifically and technologically without maintaining the necessary boundaries set by morals and values in our society. Would it then make more sense that since my family helped found this nation that maybe I would want to hang around to help try and fix what's currently wrong with it rather than running away?
 
Tigger said:
What if I told you that I believe a lot (not all) of their values are the same values that my family helped found this nation upon and that we have abandoned in the last century and a half? I believe that what's holding this country back and bringing us down right now is the fact that we have advanced scientifically and technologically without maintaining the necessary boundaries set by morals and values in our society. Would it then make more sense that since my family helped found this nation that maybe I would want to hang around to help try and fix what's currently wrong with it rather than running away?
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If we were talking about banking regulation and corporate welfare this would make sense and belong.

But we're not - so it doesn't.

You seem to think that 'the past' was a golden age and 'the present' is wrought of iron - expand your knowledge of the past, learn about how people actually lived and not about how they were rumored to live and you'll find some intense truths as well as some bitter realities. One truth: this fairly tale fantasy 'past' that you're envisioning never existed.
 
disneydude said:
Sorry....but the man should have ZERO say in it. He is not the one that carries the fetus. This is a woman's choice and a woman's choice only.
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So then the responsibilities and consequences become hers to bear, and hers only. Why subject the man to the realities of HER choice?
 
My answer is just like the other threat. To honestly, fairly and logically answer I have to say YES its the women's responsibility.

With that being said I have to vote OTHER until there are actually laws and rules to dictate such.
 
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Tigger said:
It's not for the kitchen, the shop or the bedroom so far as I'm concerned. It's the direct route and express lane to Hell so far as I'm concerned.
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Is this a sarcastic quote or are you being serious?
 
I propose that we stop feeding the obvious troll here.
 
Ikari said:
So then the responsibilities and consequences become hers to bear, and hers only. Why subject the man to the realities of HER choice?
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Because the child still needs to be supported. You seem to be viewing child support as a form of punishment that men have to pay to women, when in actuality it's just part of the cost of raising a child who had nothing to do with the choices that either parent made.
 
Bodhisattva said:
If a woman chooses to keep her pregnancy and have a child against the man's wishes and she chooses to not use her legal option of birth control and have an abortion, should the man have to pay child suport for her choice.Should the man have to pay Child Support if he does not want the child and the woman decides to not opt to have an abortion as a means of contraception?I think that he should not be legally liable if he does not want the child. The woman has all the choice and can not only keep the baby and make him pay, but she can keep the baby, not tell him about the baby and then hit him up 18 years later for back Child Support.This thread is not about a woman's right to choose. That is legal and fine and all that. This thread is about a woman's choice subjegating a man to the role of a wallet for 18 years due to the whim of a woman's choice to keep a child against his wishes. Before we hear the whole, he shoulda kept it in his pants and now he has no choice in the matter. That is understood. That is the law. The issue is, is the law fair? As far as I am aware, there is no case law that deals with him being forced due to her choice. There is law about her having a choice, but none about why he should have to pay for her choice. That being said, this thread is not about the law, but about what is right. This is also not about exceptions: ie, she found out 5 months into her pregnancy due to irregular cycles, etc. This is about the woman that gets pregnant when the man wants to leave the marriage, or the woman that pricks the condom when having sex with a guy that she just met so that she gets pregnant and wants nothing to do with him or the times that a one-nighter turns into an 18 year nightmare simply because she wanted the child more and the state backs her decision out of sexism.Are women not responsible? Can she not be held liable for her own decisions?If she wants the baby, that is fine. She should have the baby and the man should be able to be out of the picture, should he so choose. If she doesn not want to raise the child on her own with no support, then she should abort. Easy as that. That is her right. That is the law. Hopefull I have explained all of this well enough. Yes, this is about abortion and threads like this exist in the Abortion Forum, but this is also a poll. I would like to know what people think outside the abortion debating crowd.Be nice please and just stick to the poll. If tangents occur please make a thread in the Abortion Forum as would be appropriate.Thanks...
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People should be held accountable for the things that they create. The man created a child, he should be held accountable for its well being. Child support isn't about the mother and it isn't about "subjugating" men. It's about the child.

In short, if you created it, it's your responsibility. Whether or not the woman chooses to have the child has no effect on the fact that the man helped create it.
 
Kandahar said:
Because the child still needs to be supported. You seem to be viewing child support as a form of punishment that men have to pay to women, when in actuality it's just part of the cost of raising a child who had nothing to do with the choices that either parent made.
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True and child support will do just about little to nothing to support that child if there are no REAL parents that want that responsibility.

Money will not get that done in the REAL world.
There kids out there that have millions at there dispose but the parents arent parents so they are still dont get supported :shrug:

Its a fallacy to think that child support ALON has so substantial impact
 
theplaydrive said:
People should be held accountable for the things that they create. The man created a child, he should be held accountable for its well being. Child support isn't about the mother and it isn't about "subjugating" men. It's about the child.

In short, if you created it, it's your responsibility. Whether or not the woman chooses to have the child has no effect on the fact that the man helped create it.
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and child support still wont do that :shrug:
 
Kandahar said:
Because the child still needs to be supported. You seem to be viewing child support as a form of punishment that men have to pay to women, when in actuality it's just part of the cost of raising a child who had nothing to do with the choices that either parent made.
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It's more than "punishment" it's taxation without representation. The man gets no input. The woman is sole owner of choice, and you bind the man to that choice. The man is an idle player, yes? Doesn't conribute much and doesn't get a say. Then the choice to kill or bring to term is solely the woman's and that puts the man out of it. If he has no say, then he has no need to pay.
 
Centrist77 said:
True and child support will do just about little to nothing to support that child if there are no REAL parents that want that responsibility.

Money will not get that done in the REAL world.
There kids out there that have millions at there dispose but the parents arent parents so they are still dont get supported :shrug:

Its a fallacy to think that child support ALON has so substantial impact
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Unfortunately there is very little the state can do to make people be more responsible parents (aside from cases of abuse/neglect). All the government can do is make them pay up, if they have money.
 
Ikari said:
It's more than "punishment" it's taxation without representation.
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The money goes to support the child. The government is merely the conduit through which this transaction occurs, and hardly qualifies as "taxation" any moreso than paying for your own child who lives with you qualifies as taxation.

The man gets no input.
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He input his power cord into a woman's socket. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

The woman is sole owner of choice, and you bind the man to that choice. The man is an idle player, yes? Doesn't conribute much and doesn't get a say. Then the choice to kill or bring to term is solely the woman's and that puts the man out of it.
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This abortion analogy is a red herring. If a woman has an abortion, then there is no child that needs to be supported. If she doesn't, then there is. So given that there is a child (i.e. there was no abortion), both parents are held responsible for it under common law. If both agree, the child could be put up for adoption, thus absolving them of responsibility. But if one wants to raise it, the other can and should be required to pay child support.

If he has no say, then he has no need to pay.
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It is his child and it needs to be supported, whether or not he wants the child. The child does not deserve to be financially punished because one or both of its parents made irresponsible choices.
 
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