View Poll Results: Should the woman's choice dictate that the man has to pay child support?

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  • Should the woman be responsible for her own choice to not abort?

    16 37.21%
  • Should the man be forced to pay child support due to the choice of the woman?

    14 32.56%
  • Other option?

    13 30.23%
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Thread: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

  1. #261
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    The state has chosen not to consider such torts for the same reason they reject "wrongful life" suits. A man can not sue for wrongful life, because he does not have standing. He could sue on behalf of the child. In order to prove that he would have to establish that the child was better off not being born. We place a high value on life and so such a claim if successful would lead to bad precedent. Also, the point of a tort is to put the person in the position they would be in if not for the negligent act. That would mean that the court should end the life of the child. That's not going to happen and so most states do not allow such cases.

    In the same respect, a man can't be held responsible for lying about his use of birth control. Several cases have been brought against men for telling women they've had vasectomies or were infertile. A woman might have standing since the pregnancy impacts her health. But the courts have dismissed them for the same reasons they dismiss torts against the woman.

    These cases would be nearly impossible to prove, they are not common and so allowing case law to develop is ill advised.
    Doesn't matter against the logical merits regarding the whole notion of child support being about the woman's choice.

    I guess I win the debate due to default.
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  2. #262
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    There is nothing in nature stopping a black man from drinking from any water fountain he chooses or any fountain that a white man can drink from. Only the law could restrain him in this and make him unequal.
    OMG. Now you are using my argument to help back your position? The law regarding abortion is a legal construct that has nothing to do with the biological act of sex.

    There is no law restraining a man from having an abortion. They can't have an abortion because they can't get pregnant.
    That is the point. That is what makes such a statement disingeuous and a waste of time.

    He is not unequal before the law. He is unequal due to biology.
    You are again using my law trumps biology argument.

    You want the man to have an equal say in the woman's decision. Sorry, he does not get to tell her what to do. Empowering him to do so would not make him equal but superior as he would have rights over her medical decisions that she does not have over his. Do you think a woman should be able to force or restrain a man from getting a vasectomy? If he refuses her request and impregnates her, should she then be able to dump the child on him without being held responsible?
    No. We want the woman to be responsible for her own body and her own choice. That is what we want... all you are doing is evading. Like a duck in the cross hairs, you are flapping all over in a vain effort to evade the actual argument.
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  3. #263
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    LMAO!

    I read the first part and stopped right. If you are going to continue to be dishonesty theres no point so just man up and admit you lied and misspoke or dont, doesnt matter to me because the facts dont change but until I know you are a poster that can be honest and rational theres no point. LMAO. Im not going to play your silly games.
    You are making a fool of yourself by taking this so personally. Did I misspeak or did I lie? It cannot be both, it can and is neither. I could have been more clear, but again the context should have made it clear. Civil actions are about financial responsibilities and not intended to hold someone to their "emotional responsibilities." Of course I was talking about financial abandonment since child support does not force the father to visit his child.

    You meant something else and that's okay. But your meaning was unclear in this context and it is you that really needed the qualifier since you were talking about something that is irrelevant to the topic.

    I am not wasting anymore words after this on this stupid subject, but I will go ahead and answer your questions.

    ok here we go, read them really slow, its three simply YES or NO questions.

    I said (A)"In reality a child isnt effect by forcing a person to by child support who doesn't want to be a parent" and "in reality a child isnt effected by forced child support" (not sure which you quoted)

    then you said (B)"If a parent abandons their child it will effect the child. There is no disputing that."

    ok heres the 2 questions

    1.) Does statement (A) mean the same as statement (B)? YES or NO
    Clearly, no. I said it has an effect on the child; you said it does not. How could they mean the same thing?

    2.) Is saying statement (A) is that same as statement (B) a lie? YES or NO
    Uhhh I would assume that any one that think those two sentences means the same thing was confused since I was obviously trying to contradict your point.


    3.) did anybody even come close to implying the opposite of your statement (B) YES or NO
    In question one you ask if they are the same. Here you ask if they were the opposite. Try again.

    But, yes. You have said that a child is not effected by the financial abandonment of their father because they can go on the public dole. It is a clearly inaccurate statement since going on the public dole would be an effect. But you mean something more. You mean they are just as well off on the public dole as they would be with their father's support. But, shifting the burden to the state effects the state (negatively) and the father (positively) for no just reason. Why should society be forced to shoulder a father's responsibilities?

  4. #264
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Doesn't matter against the logical merits regarding the whole notion of child support being about the woman's choice.

    I guess I win the debate due to default.
    What logical merits? You have won nothing. You backpedaled off your point and then I gave you the legal reasoning behind dismissing the torts you claimed were your real concern. You have not provided any argument about how the court could deal with the sticky issue of how not being alive is better than being alive or how the state could repair the child to the state of being had the negligent act not occurred. You just go back to all you have done throughout. Reassert your position without offering argument and claim victory.

  5. #265
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    You are making a fool of yourself by taking this so personally. Did I misspeak or did I lie? It cannot be both, it can and is neither. I could have been more clear, but again the context should have made it clear. Civil actions are about financial responsibilities and not intended to hold someone to their "emotional responsibilities." Of course I was talking about financial abandonment since child support does not force the father to visit his child.

    You meant something else and that's okay. But your meaning was unclear in this context and it is you that really needed the qualifier since you were talking about something that is irrelevant to the topic.

    I am not wasting anymore words after this on this stupid subject, but I will go ahead and answer your questions.



    Clearly, no. I said it has an effect on the child; you said it does not. How could they mean the same thing?



    Uhhh I would assume that any one that think those two sentences means the same thing was confused since I was obviously trying to contradict your point.




    In question one you ask if they are the same. Here you ask if they were the opposite. Try again.

    But, yes. You have said that a child is not effected by the financial abandonment of their father because they can go on the public dole. It is a clearly inaccurate statement since going on the public dole would be an effect. But you mean something more. You mean they are just as well off on the public dole as they would be with their father's support. But, shifting the burden to the state effects the state (negatively) and the father (positively) for no just reason. Why should society be forced to shoulder a father's responsibilities?
    more lies and dishonesty, really? I mean dude who are you pretending for??
    another lie/assumption by you is that this is personal??? LMAO how do you figure that. I find you VERY entertaining. Your dodges, lies, and the way you are desperately trying to save face and spin everything is quite entertaining.

    another lie is that you think I was off topic, I am not I am directly on topic, would you like to reread the op or ask him?

    its ok, you again continue to tell me everything I need to know about you. At least for this topic you are not to be taken seriously nor can anybody expect you to be logical, honest or base anything on reality. Its why you choose not to directly answer the questions because you know the true answers expose you.

    Let us know when you have something of merit.
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  6. #266
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    OMG. Now you are using my argument to help back your position? The law regarding abortion is a legal construct that has nothing to do with the biological act of sex.
    What? I mean, please, you need to fill in the giant gap between these non sequiturs and try to make a coherent association.

    The laws on abortion have nothing to do with sex. So?

    That is the point. That is what makes such a statement disingeuous and a waste of time.
    Your point is that a man is equal before the law? Really?

    You are again using my law trumps biology argument.
    Uhhh, no... I am arguing biology trumps law. The man is unequal in his ability to have an abortion due to biology and no law can change that.


    No. We want the woman to be responsible for her own body and her own choice. That is what we want... all you are doing is evading. Like a duck in the cross hairs, you are flapping all over in a vain effort to evade the actual argument.
    Dude, I have evaded nothing. Your responses and those of centrist are nothing but incoherent babbling. You have not offered any actual argument. In between the incoherent nonsense you just reassert and claim victory.

  7. #267
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    What logical merits? You have won nothing. You backpedaled off your point and then I gave you the legal reasoning behind dismissing the torts you claimed were your real concern. You have not provided any argument about how the court could deal with the sticky issue of how not being alive is better than being alive or how the state could repair the child to the state of being had the negligent act not occurred. You just go back to all you have done throughout. Reassert your position without offering argument and claim victory.
    You ignored a whole post of mine and have not even addressed, let alone refuted the claim that the issue is about choice...

    I don't need to go into how a court could deal with the issue of how not being alive is better than being alive anymore than a woman does when justifying her abortion.

    I don't need to go into how a court could deal with the issue of how the state could repair the child to the state of being had the negligent act not occurred because I don't even understand what this incoherent rant is addressing. What state of being? What negligent act?

    I addressed how the court could and should deal with this in this thread and in other threads already. The woman informs the man she is pregnant within a timely manner (ASAP), he declares his intent. If intent is to not be involved he legally informs her ASAP. She then has the choice to abort or to have the baby. If she has the baby then all financial support is on her, since she made a choice to have the baby knowing that the man would not be involved. If she aborts then the situation is over. This can and has happened... but it is extremely rare if not almost unique. The problem is that most most most women would never agree to this. Why? Why would they when they can have the baby anyway and force the man to help pay for their choice.

    Address that. As yet, you have not. That is why I am the winner. I am a winner and eating some tasty ass sushi too... I am also going to meet the US Ambassador in about 15 minutes for cocktails.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  8. #268
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    more lies and dishonesty, really? I mean dude who are you pretending for??
    another lie/assumption by you is that this is personal??? LMAO how do you figure that. I find you VERY entertaining. Your dodges, lies, and the way you are desperately trying to save face and spin everything is quite entertaining.

    another lie is that you think I was off topic, I am not I am directly on topic, would you like to reread the op or ask him?

    its ok, you again continue to tell me everything I need to know about you. At least for this topic you are not to be taken seriously nor can anybody expect you to be logical, honest or base anything on reality. Its why you choose not to directly answer the questions because you know the true answers expose you.

    Let us know when you have something of merit.
    Non responsive.

    I have no need to save face. It is your inability to form a coherent point that is an embarrassment.

  9. #269
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    What? I mean, please, you need to fill in the giant gap between these non sequiturs and try to make a coherent association.

    The laws on abortion have nothing to do with sex. So?
    What is incoherent about it?

    Is that you M.O.? Crying incoherent over and over?

    Your point is that a man is equal before the law? Really?
    wooosh! Man, I have not seen something fly over somebodies head that dangerously high... could you even hear it?

    Uhhh, no... I am arguing biology trumps law. The man is unequal in his ability to have an abortion due to biology and no law can change that.
    Your whole argument is that once he ejaculates he is helpless... that is bull **** since the woman has the option of aborting... forget it. You don't get it.

    Dude, I have evaded nothing. Your responses and those of centrist are nothing but incoherent babbling. You have not offered any actual argument. In between the incoherent nonsense you just reassert and claim victory.
    Dude, Bro! What are you, a surfer dude or something bra?

    You are ****ing evading it right here in this statement. I tell you that the argument is about her choice and you, yet again, evade it and talk about everything else but that one frickin' relevant freaking point!!!

    Dude... bra... whateva'.

    I am a SoCal surfer... so I can get away with that. How 'bout you?
    Last edited by Bodhisattva; 09-15-11 at 01:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #270
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Non responsive.

    I have no need to save face. It is your inability to form a coherent point that is an embarrassment.
    Incoherhent! Incoherent!

    You remind me of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory Johnny Depp... he didn't like the relevant things that the kids were saying so he tells them that he can't understand a word that they are saying since they keep mumbling... dude, you're funny.
    Last edited by Bodhisattva; 09-15-11 at 01:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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