View Poll Results: Should the woman's choice dictate that the man has to pay child support?

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  • Should the woman be responsible for her own choice to not abort?

    16 37.21%
  • Should the man be forced to pay child support due to the choice of the woman?

    14 32.56%
  • Other option?

    13 30.23%
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Thread: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

  1. #241
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    No, you said...

    'legal construct designed by women and the feminist friendly courts"

    You are wrong. Child support was a legal construct that was developed before women had the right to vote. Roe v Wade has no relevance to it at all.
    I am talking about what I just stated... the now. I should have said supported instead of created. Big deal... that isn't even relevant. The laws that were created before were also created before abortion was determined to be a legal and valid form of birth control.


    Sorry, it is not. It establishes that there is a causal relationship that is damaging to the child.
    If there is an abortion then there is no child to damage. Why you can't grasp this is beyond me...

    Huh? Is this all you got?
    That is all I need for that aspect...

    All you are doing is asserting that I am wrong and failing to offer any argument as to why or how. Your point is worthless and without merit for the reasons I have outlined.
    I have repeatedly stated to you why you are wrong. I have not just, "asserted that (you) are wrong".

    That choice was made by both.
    No. She has the ultimate birth control... abortion. It ultimately is her choice and her choice alone. All you are doing is making excuses for selfishness and trying to hold others accountable.

    I responded to your ad hom with an ad hom. Dummy, I did not say that I did not want to turn this into ad homs. I said YOU don't want it to turn into ad homs. You are in the position of being painted as the pusillanimous little twerp that abandoned his child(ren).
    I will take you on in an ad hom battle fest if you like... just start one in the basement, mate.

    So what you want me to believe is that you are a responsible father who simply has chosen to be a champion for a bunch of deadbeat irresponsible jerks? Okay, does not make much sense, but whatever... you are still flat wrong.
    I am a father and have posted their pictures here and had discussions with many about them and I have met one member of this forum in person who has seen them and another who I will be meeting upor return to the USA in December. If you are in the LA area let me know and my daughters and I can meet you for lunch.

    I am not championing dead beats... I am challenging a sexist and flawed law much like others have done in history. I am basing it off logic, not emotion.

    I don't need to use the ad homs to make my point. Your only argument in rebuttal is your claim that I am naive, which is not an argument at all.
    True enough...

    Your point in this little tangent was that the laws should seriously consider that the woman had punched holes in the condom or tricked the man in some way. There is no reason for that assumption without solid proof, as it is not the common way in which pregnancies occur.
    I am saying, in this thread that I created (no idea where you got the idea that I am on a tangent), that those instances were the ones that got me thinking about this issue that I just sorta realized about a month or two ago.

    1. He does not get to choose abortion as the pregnancy has no effect on his body or health.
    2. His choices in the matter have already occurred and he is responsible for them.
    1. Agreed
    2. Nope. Biology and law need not be intertwined.

    Not hard to understand? This is not even coherent. The child is affective??? I don't know wtf ur talking about.

    The state is amenable to allowing someone else to assume the father's responsibility. That has nothing to do with any argument you made. You are arguing that the man should be allowed to deny his responsibilities.
    jeez... a typo since I was typing fast, am tired and have minor Dyslexia. Affected

    The rest was extremely coherent. If there is no baby there is nothing to be responsible for. That is why this is all about her choice... debate that. The rest is irrelevant.

    You just want the woman to be held solely responsible for the benefit of the father, regardless of its impact on the child. In other words, it's a battle between the man and the woman that ignores the child.
    IF THERE IS NOT CHILD THEN THERE IS NO IMPACT ON THE CHILD!!!!!!

    Holy freaking christ!

    You are in a very small minority and most of your cohorts are POS who want to rationalize the abandonment of their responsibilities.
    You realize that Appeal to Popularity is a logical fallacy and one that did not help Separate But Equal stay law nor keep the woman from attaining the vote. It will also eventually see that gays are allowed to marry. Anything else?
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  2. #242
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Can a woman not have an abortion in your world, or something?
    I already dealt with this. Abortion has nothing to do with child support.

  3. #243
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    I already dealt with this. Abortion has nothing to do with child support.
    Correct. That is not the point though... the point is that her choice to abort or not has everything to do with child support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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  4. #244
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I am talking about what I just stated... the now. I should have said supported instead of created. Big deal... that isn't even relevant.
    So now you simply assert that a point that was originally yours is irrelevant without argument because I corrected your ignorance? Your ad hom was not relevant or even remotely accurate.

    The laws that were created before were also created before abortion was determined to be a legal and valid form of birth control.
    Again, your point is not accurate. Abortion was used and legal in some areas before the legal precedents of child support began to develop. Try again.


    If there is an abortion then there is no child to damage. Why you can't grasp this is beyond me...
    Relevance? I don't support forcing anyone to pay child support for an aborted child. We are talking about a born child.

    That is all I need for that aspect...
    Your incoherent claims of irrelevance proves your point valid?

    I have repeatedly stated to you why you are wrong. I have not just, "asserted that (you) are wrong".
    Nope.

    No. She has the ultimate birth control... abortion. It ultimately is her choice and her choice alone. All you are doing is making excuses for selfishness and trying to hold others accountable.
    Most people don't think of abortion as a form of birth control. But okay, if that is what you mean, again, her choice in that matter does not affect the father's responsibility for his part in reproduction which he chose.

    I will take you on in an ad hom battle fest if you like... just start one in the basement, mate.
    You have been engaging in ad hom throughout. Again., this tangent started when the entire substance of your response was that I was naive.

    I am a father and have posted their pictures here and had discussions with many about them and I have met one member of this forum in person who has seen them and another who I will be meeting upor return to the USA in December. If you are in the LA area let me know and my daughters and I can meet you for lunch.
    I have taken you at your word. I don't care whether you are a good father. It has no bearing on the fact that your argument is wrong. I was simply pointing out that you were in no position to engage in ad homs.


    I am not championing dead beats... I am challenging a sexist and flawed law much like others have done in history. I am basing it off logic, not emotion.
    You are basing it solely on emotion. You want to make the woman appear to be a villain which is why you bring up nonsense about tricking the man.

    True enough...

    I am saying, in this thread that I created (no idea where you got the idea that I am on a tangent), that those instances were the ones that got me thinking about this issue that I just sorta realized about a month or two ago.
    This is tangential to your main argument. You did not argue that if a woman had tricked the man into impregnating her... You added that after the fact and created a tangent within your main argument. But anyway.

    1. Agreed
    2. Nope. Biology and law need not be intertwined.
    The man has taken part in the reproductive process and he is responsible for the result.

    jeez... a typo since I was typing fast, am tired and have minor Dyslexia. Affected
    The entire quote was incoherent.

    The rest was extremely coherent. If there is no baby there is nothing to be responsible for. That is why this is all about her choice... debate that. The rest is irrelevant.
    Who is being held responsible when there is no baby?

    IF THERE IS NOT CHILD THEN THERE IS NO IMPACT ON THE CHILD!!!!!!
    And no child support.


    You realize that Appeal to Popularity is a logical fallacy and one that did not help Separate But Equal stay law nor keep the woman from attaining the vote. It will also eventually see that gays are allowed to marry. Anything else?
    Do you? You are a funny guy but no one is laughing with you. You are the one that made the appeal to popularity, Einstein. You said, "I am not the only one that thinks so either...", which is an appeal to popularity. I simply pointed out that your position was not that popular. I never said nor implied that you were wrong because your psoition was unpopular. I have given my reasons for why you are wrong and you have failed to respond in any substantive way.

  5. #245
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Correct. That is not the point though... the point is that her choice to abort or not has everything to do with child support.
    It does not. Child support is based on the child's needs not on who most wanted or did not want the child. There is no reason why the state should empower the man to force the woman to choose between abortion and his abandonment of the child. Again, his choice in the reproductive process has already ended and he does not get to walk away from it after the fact.

    Abortions can lead to medical complications and the choice should be left solely to the woman since it is her health that is impacted. Again, if a man wants an abortion he can have one done on himself. It won't end the real pregnancy though, since that does not occur inside the man's body which is why he does not get any say in a real abortion. You can continue to whine about how it's really just a conspiracy by the evil feminist to make men inferior but that has no connection to reality.

    Are you pro-choice?

  6. #246
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I bet that an unintended consequence would be that woman would be even:

    MORE careful with whom they slept with, and;
    MORE careful with the birth control if that last sentence was the new reality, and;
    MORE careful about waiting to sleep with a man that they were in a relationship with or cared for...

    Really, it would be better than it is now for stable relationships and potential families...
    So - due to the fact that men have no risk involved for having sex - you think that the problem would be solved by the fact that women would subsequently take on additional responsibility for making good sexual choices?

    Does this put the male/female accountability split at about 0/100? (if you think I'm wrong about this, I'd like to know why)

    Under your scenario, as a male, I really don't see any reason I should use any form of protection as a preventative towards pregnancy.

    Your scenario is like two insurance companies going in on a deal together, but just one of the insurance companies is forced to take ALL of the risk for what might happen as a result of the deal. How is that fair?

  7. #247
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    So now you simply assert that a point that was originally yours is irrelevant without argument because I corrected your ignorance? Your ad hom was not relevant or even remotely accurate.
    Ignorance? Holy cow you think a lot of yourself. I made a grammatical error and admitted it. I then clarified that this is not the point of my argument. If you want to continue with this "tangent", then have fun. I leave you the last comment as I will not waste any further time with this.

    Again, your point is not accurate. Abortion was used and legal in some areas before the legal precedents of child support began to develop. Try again.
    Abortion was never really addressed. Whether it was legal or not is also irrelevant. It is legal now. I am talking about now. I don't care what happened 100 years ago any more than I care about Hammurabi's Code. It is irrelevant. Deal with the now. After all, that is the time that we live in.

    By your stupid argument, slavery should never have been addressed since slavery was legal in most of the world until recently. Who cares? Times change. Catch up.

    Relevance? I don't support forcing anyone to pay child support for an aborted child. We are talking about a born child.
    Disingenuous. Just like arguing that a man has an equal right to an abortion or gays have an equal right to marriage. The whole argument wreaks of smelly doo doo.

    Your incoherent claims of irrelevance proves your point valid?
    Not my fault you have reading comprehension issues...

    Nope.
    Nice counter argument. What's next. "I am right and you are wrong"?

    Most people don't think of abortion as a form of birth control. But okay, if that is what you mean, again, her choice in that matter does not affect the father's responsibility for his part in reproduction which he chose.
    This is like a math problem. 1 plus 1 does not equal 4. Well, her act in sex plus his act in sex does not equal a child. What's missing? What is the number three? Her choice. Her act plus his act plus her choice to not have an abortion = 4 (the child). He has no responsiblity without number 3. No responsibility without her choice to have the child.

    You have been engaging in ad hom throughout. Again., this tangent started when the entire substance of your response was that I was naive.
    That was not meant as an ad hom. But whatever... it was taken as such. I called you a couple of little things and you then started with the big bombs. The big insults about being a deatbeat, to put it mildly. The two don't equate. Be honest. You know that you actually, "started it". Unless I just don't remember a totally asshole like comment like you made that is...

    I have taken you at your word. I don't care whether you are a good father. It has no bearing on the fact that your argument is wrong. I was simply pointing out that you were in no position to engage in ad homs.
    ... moving on.

    You are basing it solely on emotion. You want to make the woman appear to be a villain which is why you bring up nonsense about tricking the man.
    No. *sigh* I am not basing it on emotion. I am basing it on logic. You don't know me at all, let alone well enought to know if I am being emotive or not.

    Women do trick men. Do you deny this? If so, you are naive. If not, then you have no counter argument against this line of reasoning. Either way you lose.

    This is tangential to your main argument. You did not argue that if a woman had tricked the man into impregnating her... You added that after the fact and created a tangent within your main argument. But anyway.
    Tricking the man and/or having a baby against his wishes is my entire argument. I have argued this in multiple threads for months now. It is not a tangent, it is the premise of my enitre argument. Without that, I would probably not even have an argument.

    The man has taken part in the reproductive process and he is responsible for the result.
    Biological sex leads to a pregnancy. Her LEGAL choice to abort comes AFTER sex and BEFORE birth. Her choice is a LEGAL CHOICE. It has nothing to do with the biological act of sex. Maybe your method of sex differs from mine but I don't have any legal contracts going on while we are engaged in intercourse. To each their own though...

    The entire quote was incoherent.
    No it wasn't. Go back to 4rth grade. Jeez. I left an "r" off of "you" and wrote "affective" instead of "affectED". Break out your grammar book and actually show how the rest of it, or how those two typos made the rest grammatically incorrect or in error of proper sytanx. Dude, give it up. LEARN TO READ. This is not a site where we are working on publishing papers for a journal. Most of us type as we think and Grammar Nazi's, expecially ones that are wrong, don't last long.

    Who is being held responsible when there is no baby?
    Irrelevant. Again.

    And no child support.
    Incomplete sentence. I can barely understand this incoherent rant.

    Do you? You are a funny guy but no one is laughing with you. You are the one that made the appeal to popularity, Einstein. You said, "I am not the only one that thinks so either...", which is an appeal to popularity. I simply pointed out that your position was not that popular. I never said nor implied that you were wrong because your psoition was unpopular. I have given my reasons for why you are wrong and you have failed to respond in any substantive way.
    I am not the only one that thinks so... HERE. Centrist and a hand full of others in this very thread have agreed with me. That is not an appeal, that is a fact. I have responded with appropriate and valid counter arguments as to why I am correct and as to why your argument has failed. What you simply need to do is to do better.

    It does not. Child support is based on the child's needs not on who most wanted or did not want the child.
    I have already agreed to this. But that is irrelevant. There is no child to support if she uses her choice to have an abortion.

    There is no reason why the state should empower the man to force the woman to choose between abortion and his abandonment of the child.
    They wouldn't be. They would be forcing her to take responsibility for her choice. I know that this idea scares many people, and even for some valid reasons. Those reasons though, should not be used to force a man into involuntary servitude.

    Again, his choice in the reproductive process has already ended and he does not get to walk away from it after the fact.
    Agreed and only says some sexist laws...

    Abortions can lead to medical complications and the choice should be left solely to the woman since it is her health that is impacted.
    Agreed.

    Again, if a man wants an abortion he can have one done on himself.
    THERE WE GO!!

    It won't end the real pregnancy though, since that does not occur inside the man's body which is why he does not get any say in a real abortion.
    Thanks for the sex ed pops...

    You can continue to whine about how it's really just a conspiracy by the evil feminist to make men inferior but that has no connection to reality.
    Who has all of the choice, and consequently power if a pregnancy occurs? Answer this with the man, the woman or both only please. Thank you.

    Are you pro-choice?
    Yes...
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  8. #248
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    So - due to the fact that men have no risk involved for having sex - you think that the problem would be solved by the fact that women would subsequently take on additional responsibility for making good sexual choices?

    Does this put the male/female accountability split at about 0/100? (if you think I'm wrong about this, I'd like to know why)

    Under your scenario, as a male, I really don't see any reason I should use any form of protection as a preventative towards pregnancy.

    Your scenario is like two insurance companies going in on a deal together, but just one of the insurance companies is forced to take ALL of the risk for what might happen as a result of the deal. How is that fair?
    What additional responsibilities does the woman take on? Saying no or yes to sex? Doesn't she, or both of them for that matter, already do this?

    It makes the act of sex at 50/50 barring something illegal like rape. It makes her decision to abort or not 100%, just like it is now. No change either way.

    Didn't I just add that men that are found to not use protection and go around and impregnate women could be found guilty and given a consequence?

    How is it fair? That is how it is now. The woman takes all the risks and the man has to pay for her choices. How is that fair?
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  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    What additional responsibilities does the woman take on? Saying no or yes to sex? Doesn't she, or both of them for that matter, already do this?

    It makes the act of sex at 50/50 barring something illegal like rape. It makes her decision to abort or not 100%, just like it is now. No change either way.

    Didn't I just add that men that are found to not use protection and go around and impregnate women could be found guilty and given a consequence?

    How is it fair? That is how it is now. The woman takes all the risks and the man has to pay for her choices. How is that fair?
    True, you did mention the excessive child provision.

    Accountability is they key. Under your scenario where men can sign away a child simply by asking a lady to abort, they effectively have no risk/accountability with having sex.

    Does accountability/risk on the male side even exist under your scenario? I can't see it, but maybe I'm missing something. If you think so, what is it?
    Last edited by David D.; 09-14-11 at 07:07 PM.

  10. #250
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    True, you did mention the excessive child provision.

    Accountability is they key. Under your scenario where men can sign away a child simply by asking a lady to abort, they effectively have no risk/accountability with having sex.

    Does accountability/risk on the male side even exist under your scenario? I can't see it, but maybe I'm missing something. If you think so, what is it?
    To be honest, my argument really only applies to women that have tricked the man. That being said, it is probably almost impossible to prove. I am also just arguing this from a logical "choice" stance and not from one where I realistically think that my argument could or even should ever be applied.

    You are too calm and reasonable to actually "debate"...
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