View Poll Results: Should the woman's choice dictate that the man has to pay child support?

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  • Should the woman be responsible for her own choice to not abort?

    16 37.21%
  • Should the man be forced to pay child support due to the choice of the woman?

    14 32.56%
  • Other option?

    13 30.23%
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Thread: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

  1. #231
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    actually "I" said that and that is NOTHING like you are saying LMAO
    so . . . NOPE

    TRYING top make a person pay child support doesn't stop them from abandoning them if they choose, it happens EVERY DAY

    so you are still wrong, nobody said what you are arguing and what you are arguing has nothing to do with child support
    Okay then. Why are you claiming no one said this when you acknowledge that you said it?

    Child support stops them from abandoning their fiduciary responsibility. Apparently, you are arguing that because they are still free to abandon their emotional responsibility that it has no effect. That is a very stupid argument which completely fails to understand the purpose of civil actions.

  2. #232
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Okay then. Why are you claiming no one said this when you acknowledge that you said it?

    Child support stops them from abandoning their fiduciary responsibility. Apparently, you are arguing that because they are still free to abandon their emotional responsibility that it has no effect. That is a very stupid argument which completely fails to understand the purpose of civil actions.
    Can a woman not have an abortion in your world, or something?
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  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Eggs are cheap... that is why they get flushed.
    Not at all. Eggs are finite to a female. They run out eventually. Only one potential conceiving period a month. Only one baby every 9 months bearing her DNA (obviously exception w/twins, triplets, ect).

    Men on the other hand (healthy men) have unlimited sperm producing capabilities from puberty till death, any time of day. A single male could impregnate hundreds of women each month theoretically, and create thousands of babies bearing his DNA each year potentially.

    Sperm is much cheaper. More supply = less demand = lower price.
    Last edited by David D.; 09-14-11 at 01:38 AM.

  4. #234
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    Not at all. Eggs are finite to a female. They run out eventually. Only one potential pregnancy a month. Only one baby at a time (obviously w/exception of twins, ect). Only one baby every 9 months bearing her DNA.

    Men on the other hand (healthy men) have unlimited sperm producing capabilities from puberty till death, any time of day. A single male could impregnate hundreds of women each month theoretically, and create thousands of babies bearing his DNA each year potentially.

    Sperm is much cheaper. More supply = less price.
    If that is your argument, then that is fine. I would argue they are equally valuable if anything. No reproduction without both. Eggs are cheap though non-the-less... and having a limited number over a limited time frame really doesn't mean much. I don't want to argue semantics though... not that big of a deal.
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  5. #235
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by RStringfield View Post
    Okay then. Why are you claiming no one said this when you acknowledge that you said it?

    Child support stops them from abandoning their fiduciary responsibility. Apparently, you are arguing that because they are still free to abandon their emotional responsibility that it has no effect. That is a very stupid argument which completely fails to understand the purpose of civil actions.
    because what you are CLAIMING was said and what was actually said are two entirely differnt things, they arent even close to the same thing at all.

    I said "In reality the child isnt effected by forced "child support" so that debate is pointless"

    then you said "If a parent abandons their child it will effect the child. There is no disputing that."

    these arent even close to the same in any reality what so ever, its an appeal to emotion and a random point to try and sell your argument. LOL

    now you are trying to change what you said and put in "qualifiers" like fiduciary to try and make it accurate since it was so off to begin with it doesnt work lol

    my statement still stands and yours is still false.

    TRYING to make somebody pay child support that doesnt want to be a parent has no impact on abandoning" the child, to think otherwise is silly.

    You say the argument fails because of civil actions I laugh at that because moms and dads ignore that stuff every day in large numbers.

    Like I said I deal in REALITY not fantasy land.

    My statement stands and yours fails and is also meaningless to the argument. Maybe try adding more qualifiers to it or change it up some more to see if you can offer something logical, accurate and reality based then.
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  6. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    If that is your argument, then that is fine. I would argue they are equally valuable if anything. No reproduction without both. Eggs are cheap though non-the-less... and having a limited number over a limited time frame really doesn't mean much. I don't want to argue semantics though... not that big of a deal.
    The point is that a single male has the ability to create thousands of children a year, vs a woman, who has the ability to create ~1.25 children a year.

    What happens when you remove all accountability on the part of the male?

    Females always will have a built-in accountability via invasive abortion or the pregnancy in general, baby at the end.

    Men have no built-in accountability and you are arguing that they should be able to reproduce at will with no consequence (in a world without child support laws)?
    Last edited by David D.; 09-14-11 at 01:51 AM.

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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Can a woman not have an abortion in your world, or something?
    obviously his world is void of a lot of real world facts and reality.

    Reality is ugly unfortunately and forcing child support to people that dont want to be moms amd dads isnt going to magically make good moms and dads.

    acting like its super rare that a person gets pregnant without wanting a child and if it happened it was because of ignorance and nothing else is simply naive also

    I simply dont understand this blind, shallow, tunnel vision, void of reality mind set.
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  8. #238
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Actually it goes back 300-400 years. I am talking about Child Support as a legal construct within the parameters of the modern setting particularly post RvW. You can cast aspersions all you like, it only affirms that you don't understand the debate.
    No, you said...

    'legal construct designed by women and the feminist friendly courts"

    You are wrong. Child support was a legal construct that was developed before women had the right to vote. Roe v Wade has no relevance to it at all.

    What happened before child support is irrelevant.
    Sorry, it is not. It establishes that there is a causal relationship that is damaging to the child.

    What impact the relationship has due to abandonment is irrelevant.
    Huh? Is this all you got?


    All this affirms is that, again, you don't understand the point of the actual argument.
    All you are doing is asserting that I am wrong and failing to offer any argument as to why or how. Your point is worthless and without merit for the reasons I have outlined.

    Within the context of child support being entirely dependent on her choice to not utilize birth control.
    That choice was made by both.

    You don't want it to turn into an ad hom battle yet you throw out an ad hom? So you throw out insult (fight) and then hide behind a pathetic statement that you don't want to fight? What kind of sissy are you?
    I responded to your ad hom with an ad hom. Dummy, I did not say that I did not want to turn this into ad homs. I said YOU don't want it to turn into ad homs. You are in the position of being painted as the pusillanimous little twerp that abandoned his child(ren).

    I am a single father of two beautiful daughters that I have 50% custody of.

    I pay FAR more child support than the court mandated when assessing my salary because I wanted to help my crazy abusive ex-wife have the best opportunity to give our children the best when they are with her.

    I did not have her salary assesed at all, she pays me nothing in return.

    On top of child support to her, I pay for all school fees, all doctor visits, all surgery's, all sports teams fees, their martial arts, dance, guitar lessons, etc. I paid to have her car fixed. I paid her moving fees when she recently moved. I take days off of work to care for the girls when they are sick since I am on salary so that she does not lose her hourly wages.

    Anything else, Bonobo?
    So what you want me to believe is that you are a responsible father who simply has chosen to be a champion for a bunch of deadbeat irresponsible jerks? Okay, does not make much sense, but whatever... you are still flat wrong.

    I don't need to use the ad homs to make my point. Your only argument in rebuttal is your claim that I am naive, which is not an argument at all.


    I don't want laws based off of unlikely scenarios. I want laws that hold her responsible for her choice and not the other way around.
    Your point in this little tangent was that the laws should seriously consider that the woman had punched holes in the condom or tricked the man in some way. There is no reason for that assumption without solid proof, as it is not the common way in which pregnancies occur.

    If she has an abortion there is no child. She has a choice. When she chooses the child over birth control against his wishes, he is held accountable. This is sexist and ridiculous. If she does not want to support the child on her own, she can use birth control.
    He does not get to choose abortion as the pregnancy has no effect on his body or health. His choices in the matter have already occurred and he is responsible for them.

    Really now, this is not that hard to understand. It is fair and equitable to both the man and the woman. All that matters is that the child is supported. Who supports the child is irrelevant. That is why you abandon scenario is irrelevant as well and you argument that the child is affective is equally irrelevant. That is, unless you argue that no child should be given up for adoption? IF that is not the case, as I have already stated... Irrelevant.
    Not hard to understand? This is not even coherent. The child is affective??? I don't know wtf ur talking about.

    The state is amenable to allowing someone else to assume the father's responsibility. That has nothing to do with any argument you made. You are arguing that the man should be allowed to deny his responsibilities.

    This is not a battle between a man and a woman. This is about making the woman responsible for her actions (ie Choice).
    You just want the woman to be held solely responsible for the benefit of the father, regardless of its impact on the child. In other words, it's a battle between the man and the woman that ignores the child.

    I am not the only one that thinks so either...
    You are in a very small minority and most of your cohorts are POS who want to rationalize the abandonment of their responsibilities.

  9. #239
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    The point is that a single male has the ability to create thousands of children a year, vs a woman, who has the ability to create ~1.25 children a year.

    What happens when you remove all accountability on the part of the male?

    Females always will have a built-in accountability via invasive abortion or the pregnancy in general, baby at the end.

    Men have no built-in accountability and you are arguing that they should be able to reproduce at will with no consequence (in a world without child support laws)?
    I bet that an unintended consequence would be that woman would be even:

    MORE careful with whom they slept with, and;
    MORE careful with the birth control if that last sentence was the new reality, and;
    MORE careful about waiting to sleep with a man that they were in a relationship with or cared for...

    Really, it would be better than it is now for stable relationships and potential families...
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  10. #240
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    because what you are CLAIMING was said and what was actually said are two entirely differnt things, they arent even close to the same thing at all.
    It was a direct, word for word quote.

    I said "In reality the child isnt effected by forced "child support" so that debate is pointless"

    then you said "If a parent abandons their child it will effect the child. There is no disputing that."

    these arent even close to the same in any reality what so ever, its an appeal to emotion and a random point to try and sell your argument. LOL
    Assertions are not argument. You need to make an actual argument for why my point is not relevant. Simply asserting the same thing over and over again is pointless.

    There was no appeal to emotion. If a father abandons his part in providing financial support for the child it will have a negative impact on the child.
    now you are trying to change what you said and put in "qualifiers" like fiduciary to try and make it accurate since it was so off to begin with it doesnt work lol
    BS! You are trying to change what I said to mean "emotional abandonment." I was not talking about emotional abandonment. Child support does not address that, so within the context of the discussion it should have been quite clear that I was talking about abandoning their financial responsibility.

    It's unfortunate that you need everything spelled out for you and are not able to glean understanding from context. But that is your problem.

    my statement still stands and yours is still false.

    TRYING to make somebody pay child support that doesnt want to be a parent has no impact on abandoning" the child, to think otherwise is silly.
    Yes, it does. The abandonment effects the child in two ways. Emotionally and financially. The point of child support is to diminish the financial effects of the abandonment. Civil action has little ability to do anything about the emotional damage.

    You can't sue your business partner for being a bad friend. You can sue him for failing to meet his financial responsibilities under the partnership agreement.

    You say the argument fails because of civil actions I laugh at that because moms and dads ignore that stuff every day in large numbers.
    What?

    Like I said I deal in REALITY not fantasy land.

    My statement stands and yours fails and is also meaningless to the argument. Maybe try adding more qualifiers to it or change it up some more to see if you can offer something logical, accurate and reality based then.
    You deal in incoherent bs without any argument to support your positions.

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