View Poll Results: Should the woman's choice dictate that the man has to pay child support?

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  • Should the woman be responsible for her own choice to not abort?

    16 37.21%
  • Should the man be forced to pay child support due to the choice of the woman?

    14 32.56%
  • Other option?

    13 30.23%
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Thread: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

  1. #101
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    Likewise.

    And although I agree abortions will always continue to occur, illegal or not, they will be much less frequent in the United States if it were to be illegal.

    I think thereís got to be women out there that despite wanting an abortion, they donít feel comfortable recruiting some black market abortion doctor on Craigslist and meeting him/her at his underground lair or something like that.
    The evidence suggests there will be no difference. The evidence suggests there were approximately one million abortions a year before RvW. Abortion could be easier to obtain now than before RvW. Travel is more accessible now, and abortion legal in more countries. Women can grow herbs in their back yards or windowsills. Drugs are available over the internet. Women on Waves will serve women on the coastlines.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Personally, the woman's choice shouldn't trump a human life and neither should the man's. However, how the laws are now is sexist and extremely discriminatory in how men have absolutely no say regarding abortion or providing for a child.
    Last edited by digsbe; 09-07-11 at 09:50 PM.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    People should be held accountable for the things that they create. The man created a child, he should be held accountable for its well being. Child support isn't about the mother and it isn't about "subjugating" men. It's about the child.

    In short, if you created it, it's your responsibility. Whether or not the woman chooses to have the child has no effect on the fact that the man helped create it.
    She can simply have an abortion if she does not want to raise the child on her own...
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  4. #104
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The money goes to support the child. The government is merely the conduit through which this transaction occurs, and hardly qualifies as "taxation" any moreso than paying for your own child who lives with you qualifies as taxation.
    That is nothing more than an Appeal to Consequences. A Logical Fallacy.

    He input his power cord into a woman's socket. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue in the first place.
    Yeah, that works both ways. If she has an abortion then it wouldn't be an issue either.

    This abortion analogy is a red herring. If a woman has an abortion, then there is no child that needs to be supported. If she doesn't, then there is. So given that there is a child (i.e. there was no abortion), both parents are held responsible for it under common law. If both agree, the child could be put up for adoption, thus absolving them of responsibility. But if one wants to raise it, the other can and should be required to pay child support.
    And we are back again, to this all being about choice. Her choice. Her choice that affects the man.
    This is all about choice and has nothing to do with a child that may or may not be alive in the future.

    It is his child and it needs to be supported, whether or not he wants the child. The child does not deserve to be financially punished because one or both of its parents made irresponsible choices.
    It isn't born yet. It isn't a child. There is no support needed initially. If she has an abortion the issue is over. If she doesn't then she is making a choice to support the child on her own. This is so simply that it is astounding to see people attempt to debate it and think that they have a calid point, in all honesty.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Concerning the issue of whether or not the woman has an abortion or not, then absolutely, the woman's choice should trump the man's. It should be her sole decision.

    Under no circumstances though, should her choice to keep the child obligate the man to pay child support for it unless he agrees to do so.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    It isn't born yet. It isn't a child. There is no support needed initially. If she has an abortion the issue is over. If she doesn't then she is making a choice to support the child on her own. This is so simply that it is astounding to see people attempt to debate it and think that they have a calid point, in all honesty.

    Here, I'll make this real simple, since you continue to ignore basic mathematical/logical realities as "appeals to emotion" or some other such nonsense. I'll make a timeline for you:

    AT CONCEPTION - At this moment, both parents have incurred a financial liability to care for their offspring from that moment until its 18th birthday or its death. If their incomes are equal, the liability will generally be 50-50. It may be skewed differently if the incomes are different or if there are other circumstances, but that's a separate discussion. It's true that the courts generally will not *order* the man to pay child support at this early stage (simply because no paternity tests can be conducted), but in most states he is legally on the hook for it from this point forward and can be retroactively charged half the costs of maternity care.

    DURING PREGNANCY - The woman may choose to have an abortion if she wants to, or she may choose to have the kid. Her body, her choice. Neither parent can simply choose to disavow responsibility for their future child. The woman cannot carry the child to term and then force the man to bear 100% of the costs, any more than the man can disown HIS responsibility and force the woman to bear 100% of the costs. In other words, neither parent can unilaterally make a decision that makes the other parent worse off financially. Abortion doesn't do this; if the woman has an abortion, BOTH parents will pay approximately 0% of the cost of raising a kid to adulthood. The same cannot be said of one parent simply disowning responsibility and sticking the other with the full bill.

    AT BIRTH - Both parents are responsible for some amount of financial liability (whatever the courts have determined is "fair" based on their incomes). Again, neither parent can unilaterally run away from their responsibilities which will leave the other parent and the child in a worse financial position. It ceases to be about who was more at "fault" for the child's birth (actually it never was about that); there is a child who needs to be supported, and common law indicates that that support comes from the biological parents in most circumstances. If both parents agree, the child can be put up for adoption.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-08-11 at 01:24 AM.
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  7. #107
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Concerning the issue of whether or not the woman has an abortion or not, then absolutely, the woman's choice should trump the man's. It should be her sole decision.

    Under no circumstances though, should her choice to keep the child obligate the man to pay child support for it unless he agrees to do so.
    So do you think that the woman has the right to have the child and then make the man bear the full cost of raising it too? And what exactly did the child do to deserve this financial punishment?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-08-11 at 01:27 AM.
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  8. #108
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Here, I'll make this real simple, since you continue to ignore basic mathematical/logical realities as "appeals to emotion" or some other such nonsense. I'll make a timeline for you:
    What is mathematical about being pregnant and choosing to abort or not? Dude, you are seriously going off the deep end.

    AT CONCEPTION - At this moment, both parents have incurred a financial liability to care for their offspring from that moment until its 18th birthday or its death. If their incomes are equal, the liability will generally be 50-50. It may be skewed differently if the incomes are different or if there are other circumstances, but that's a separate discussion. It's true that the courts generally will not *order* the man to pay child support at this early stage (simply because no paternity tests can be conducted), but in most states he is legally on the hook for it from this point forward and can be retroactively charged half the costs of maternity care.
    No they haven't. She can abort. Why you continue to ignore a fact that is so simple is beyond me. Seriously...

    DURING PREGNANCY - The woman may choose to have an abortion if she wants to, or she may choose to have the kid. Her body, her choice.
    Agreed...

    Neither parent can simply choose to disavow responsibility for their future child.
    Sure they can. It happens all the time. Your issue is that you don't understand the "Code Words". Abortion. Adoption. Etc.

    The woman cannot carry the child to term and then force the man to bear 100% of the costs, any more than the man can disown HIS responsibility and force the woman to bear 100% of the costs. In other words, neither parent can unilaterally make a decision that makes the other parent worse off financially. Abortion doesn't do this; if the woman has an abortion, BOTH parents will pay approximately 0% of the cost of raising a kid to adulthood. The same cannot be said of one parent simply disowning responsibility and sticking the other with the full bill.
    All you are doing is regurgitating illogical and sexist laws... anything else?

    AT BIRTH - Both parents are responsible for some amount of financial liability (whatever the courts have determined is "fair" based on their incomes). Again, neither parent can unilaterally run away from their responsibilities which will leave the other parent and the child in a worse financial position. It ceases to be about who was more at "fault" for the child's birth (actually it never was about that); there is a child who needs to be supported, and common law indicates that that support comes from the biological parents in most circumstances. If both parents agree, the child can be put up for adoption.
    If the courts did not bind the man to her choice, then he would not have to pay anything. Again, it is all about her choice. Watching you ignore this is comical.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    If the courts did not bind the man to her choice, then he would not have to pay anything. Again, it is all about her choice. Watching you ignore this is comical.
    Watching you ignore the fact that a man disavowing responsibility (which would result in a 0-100 split in child support payments) is not the same as a woman having an abortion (which would result in a 0-0 split in child support payments) is comical. Abortion makes them both BETTER off financially; disavowing responsibility makes the deadbeat dad better off and the mother worse off. Oh, and in the latter scenario there's a kid who is worse off than if both parents supported him.

    What is mathematical about being pregnant and choosing to abort or not? Dude, you are seriously going off the deep end.
    I already posted these basic mathematical facts, and rather than respond to it you said "zomg emotion." Here it is again for your convenience. An economic example of how these decisions would actually play out. Assuming equal incomes and a 50-50 split in child support for simplicity, but the numbers can be adjusted and the point still stands.

    Woman chooses to have an abortion: Man pays 0%, woman pays 0% (of the cost of raising the child to adulthood)
    Woman chooses not to have an abortion: Man pays 50%, woman pays 50%

    Man chooses to disavow responsibility: Man pays 0%, woman pays 100%
    Man chooses to take responsibility: Man pays 50%, woman pays 50%

    Of these four decisions, only the one you are advocating results in an unequal distribution in the burden of child support. In other words, the man is able to burden the woman with his share, but the woman is not able to do the same to him. Abortion is not the same as what you are advocating, and to call these laws "sexist" for keeping the burden on BOTH parents is bull****, when you are advocating an unequal distribution in child support costs in the man's favor (for parents in equal financial situations).

    And again there is an actual CHILD who is harmed if a parent unilaterally disavows financial responsibility for it. That isn't the case if the mother unilaterally decides to have an abortion; there is no child who needs child support then.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-08-11 at 04:28 AM.
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  10. #110
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    Re: Should Woman's Choice Trump the Man's??

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    If a woman chooses to keep her pregnancy and have a child against the man's wishes and she chooses to not use her legal option of birth control and have an abortion, should the man have to pay child suport for her choice.Should the man have to pay Child Support if he does not want the child and the woman decides to not opt to have an abortion as a means of contraception?I think that he should not be legally liable if he does not want the child. The woman has all the choice and can not only keep the baby and make him pay, but she can keep the baby, not tell him about the baby and then hit him up 18 years later for back Child Support.This thread is not about a woman's right to choose. That is legal and fine and all that. This thread is about a woman's choice subjegating a man to the role of a wallet for 18 years due to the whim of a woman's choice to keep a child against his wishes. Before we hear the whole, he shoulda kept it in his pants and now he has no choice in the matter. That is understood. That is the law. The issue is, is the law fair? As far as I am aware, there is no case law that deals with him being forced due to her choice. There is law about her having a choice, but none about why he should have to pay for her choice. That being said, this thread is not about the law, but about what is right. This is also not about exceptions: ie, she found out 5 months into her pregnancy due to irregular cycles, etc. This is about the woman that gets pregnant when the man wants to leave the marriage, or the woman that pricks the condom when having sex with a guy that she just met so that she gets pregnant and wants nothing to do with him or the times that a one-nighter turns into an 18 year nightmare simply because she wanted the child more and the state backs her decision out of sexism.Are women not responsible? Can she not be held liable for her own decisions?If she wants the baby, that is fine. She should have the baby and the man should be able to be out of the picture, should he so choose. If she doesn not want to raise the child on her own with no support, then she should abort. Easy as that. That is her right. That is the law. Hopefull I have explained all of this well enough. Yes, this is about abortion and threads like this exist in the Abortion Forum, but this is also a poll. I would like to know what people think outside the abortion debating crowd.Be nice please and just stick to the poll. If tangents occur please make a thread in the Abortion Forum as would be appropriate.Thanks...
    Your poll is worded very strangely, so I voted other.

    A man's responsibility for the result of his decision to have unprotected sex has nothing to do with a woman's decision about her body. If he is not ready to be responsible for a child, he should not have unprotected sex. Problem solved.
    Last edited by Catawba; 09-08-11 at 04:41 AM.
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