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Thread: Child Support Payments

  1. #391
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleRain View Post
    And I feel if a man has a child and abandons it, or refuses to pay support, he should be obligated to have a vasectomy
    All men should be forced to get vasectomies... we can freeze and bank sperm now. It would end all unplanned pregnancies, all abortions, and all unwanted child support cases. 3 birds, 1 stone. I iz so smart.

  2. #392
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    All men should be forced to get vasectomies... we can freeze and bank sperm now. It would end all unplanned pregnancies, all abortions, and all unwanted child support cases. 3 birds, 1 stone. I iz so smart.
    No way, it should be the opposite. Find a way to just make babies in some clean environment. Then we don't have to deal with women telling us not to go watch football with the guys! I like football damned it!
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  3. #393
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I just can't see it as a backup plan. You've already made life. You've already impacted the ground. Momentum has changed. To me, it sounds well more like repercussion. And when the repercussion is life, I think it best to err on its side. Better to be alive then dead, I say.
    It's not that easy or black and white... if it was, then abortion wouldn't still be with us today. The fact is, I am just not comfortable forcing certain people to carry a pregnancy to term, and I never will be.

  4. #394
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    It's not that easy or black and white... if it was, then abortion wouldn't still be with us today. The fact is, I am just not comfortable forcing certain people to carry a pregnancy to term, and I never will be.
    Barring cases of rape, I don't see the "force".
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #395
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I mean "should" as in "if she doesn't want to raise it herself, she 'should' have an abortion". That can easily be changed to could. She could if she wants to, or not. Her choice. No duty nor obligation. Sorry...
    Abortion is not the same as flippantly signing a piece of paper disavowing legal responsibility for one's offspring. Many people view it as tantamount to murder and would never even consider it. Many others view it as something that's not quite that bad, but still something that's awful and would be extremely upset if they had to make that decision. To just callously say that she "should" have had an abortion unless she wants to raise the kid herself is the opposite of choice: it's making abortion into a DUTY...something that she had better do if she wants to avoid getting shouldered with the ENTIRE financial burden of caring for the child.

    It is all about her choice and talking about when it is concieved is to miss the point entirely...
    Umm it IS about conception. That's why the courts don't order random people to pay child support for children they had nothing to do with; the responsibility is on the biological parents unless otherwise specified.

    It is NOT "all about her choice"; it's a child who needs to be supported, not a punishment for the actions of one or both parents. The adults in question are not the only ones whose interests are at stake...and more specifically, the MAN in question is not the only one whose interest is at stake.

    The man chooses to do the right thing and care for his kid.
    The man to run away from his financial obligations.

    Jeez. Such emotional hatred.

    It isn't a "kid". It is a zygote.
    It will soon become a kid and need to be supported. Actually, it needs to be financially supported even as a zygote. Many woman don't bother to press the issue legally and it's usually not resolved until after the birth, but in most states a man is technically on the hook for half of her maternity costs as well. As he should be.

    And I notice you didn't address the actual point of that section: A woman unilaterally deciding to have an abortion doesn't make the man any worse off financially; a man unilaterally deciding to disown his kids DOES make the woman worse off financially.

    That being said, I pay far more than 50% and I would bet that most men do that have some custody of their children. I pay for 100% of my time with them, around 50% of the week and I pay her for much of her time with them as well.
    I had a feeling that this was all about you and your selfish desire to avoid paying for your children. What an immature rant.

    I have pointed out that this is a disingenuous argument at it's core. It is analogous to saying that a homosexual can marry equally as a heterosexual can. If a man can't get pregnant, to say that he has equal rights to an abortion is dishonest and misleading.
    Abortion is not the same as a man disavowing responsibility because if a woman has an abortion, it doesn't make the man any worse off financially. In fact, it makes them both better off (financially) than if she'd had the child. If the man disavows responsibility for his kid, it makes himself better off and the woman worse off.

    She has the ultimate birth control... abortion. If she does not want to raise a child on her own she "COULD" get an abortion. It is her choice. There is no kid yet, it is a zygote. Neither have any responsiblity since there is no kid.
    This is simply incorrect. From the moment the offspring is conceived (whatever label you want to use), both parents are expected to contribute to its financial wellbeing until it becomes an adult or until it dies. There are some states where women are unfortunately expected to bear the cost of the entire pregnancy, but I believe they are in the minority. And they should be nonexistent.

    She CHOOSES to let the pregnancy continue. It is her CHOICE to let the zygote evolve. Nobody is or will force her... certainly not the man in question. She has free will to abort or not abort. If she chooses to abort, fine. If she chooses to not abort, fine. Forcing that man to be repsonsible for her "CHOICE" lacks logic at it's core and you have said LITERALLY NOTHING to refute that.
    If you want to turn the "right" to an abortion into a "duty" to get an abortion, you are entitled to that ignorant opinion. But don't pretend that that isn't what you are arguing. No one is "forcing the man" to do anything; he was on the hook for his share of the financial costs for raising the kid to age 18 the moment that their child was conceived. And regardless of whether or not the woman has an abortion, her actions will not increase his share of the costs. It will either eliminate them entirely (if she has an abortion) or maintain the status quo in terms of his financial responsibilities (if she doesn't).

    There is no "kid". There also is no "child" or "baby". It is a group of cells known as a "ZYGOTE". Got it?

    It is her choice to continue the pregnancy until it becomes a kid. Deal with that and about her choice. All you are doing with the rest is to create tangents and alter the point of the argument away from her choice and onto some mythical "responsibility" that he has for a zygote.
    Call it what you like. I use "child" as a neutral term to mean their offspring at whatever stage of development. But depending on where you live you may be incorrect if you believe that the man's financial responsibilities are "mythical" until the baby is born. That may have been YOUR experience if you didn't help pay for maternal care and no one forced you to, but it's not what the law of many states says, and it's not what common decency would dictate REGARDLESS of legal responsibility.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-06-11 at 02:00 AM.
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  6. #396
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Barring cases of rape, I don't see the "force".
    If it's unwanted, then it's forced on them... If you don't volunteer to do it, and the law makes you do it, then it's force. We aren't talking forced conception, but gestation which is essentially production. Conception is nearly impossible to force or prevent with predictive outcomes... some birth control doesn't even prevent fertilization. Conception isn't forced, but pro lifers essentially support government forcing a female to remain in the state of gestation.

  7. #397
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Woman made that decision when she opened her legs. THat was her decision alone. No one forced her into it.
    And if he gets pregnant as a result of his actions, he should have the same right as a woman to abort it. Agreed.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I do not buy, and probably will not buy (less someone gives a very convincing argument) the "better dead than poor" argument.
    Its not my argument. My argument is it is wrong to bring a child into the world just to be mistreated.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #399
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    If it's unwanted, then it's forced on them... If you don't volunteer to do it, and the law makes you do it, then it's force. We aren't talking forced conception, but gestation which is essentially production. Conception is nearly impossible to force or prevent with predictive outcomes... some birth control doesn't even prevent fertilization. Conception isn't forced, but pro lifers essentially support government forcing a female to remain in the state of gestation.
    There are consequences when you partake in sex. This is not unknown. It's basic biology. But at conception, you've made a life. I cannot see how it is fair to eliminate that life for the convenience of those already in existence. You know that going into it. Better alive then dead.

    Conception is impossible to prevent on the absolute scale, yes. There are means to drastically lower the probabilities, but it won't be zero. This must be understood because I cannot see it as fair as to take out the shortsightedness of the parents on the unborn child whom has done nothing wrong. It does not seem rational.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #400
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Its not my argument. My argument is it is wrong to bring a child into the world just to be mistreated.
    True, unfortunate indeed. Yet so long as one is alive, there is always hope of a better tomorrow.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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