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Thread: Child Support Payments

  1. #351
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And therein lies the problem. Most people who are pro-choice favor CHOICE. Once you turn abortion into an obligation or a duty or a responsibility, then it's no longer truly a choice even if another option exists.
    Where is the duty or obligation? I see none so I see no problem

    And therein lies another problem. That's the entirely wrong way to frame a discussion about child support, which SHOULD be about the child.
    But it isn’t about the child… it is about the woman’s choice.

    Choice = abortion or child
    Abortion = No child
    No child = no child support

    When a baby is conceived, the parents are both legally responsible for the child from that point forward. The man cannot sign a piece of paper disavowing responsibility and sticking the woman with the full cost for raising the child, any more than the woman can do that to the man. Neither has any special rights in that regard; they are BOTH responsible for financially supporting that child until age 18, except under unusual circumstances (e.g. both parents agree to put the child up for adoption).
    If she has an abortion… no child
    If she does not want to support the child on her own… have an abortion.

    What is so hard to grasp?

    Now, if something happens so that it never reaches age 18 (e.g. it's aborted, or it dies in childhood), then of course there isn't going to be any child support because there is no child to support. This has nothing to do with whose "fault" it was that the child never reached age 18; the obligation is simply removed because the reason for it no longer exists.
    Nothing about my argument assigns any “fault”.

    Both parents have equal rights to unilaterally disown their child and stick the other parent with the full cost of raising it (i.e. they can't do it). And both parents have equal rights to abort any children they happen to be pregnant with (i.e. they can).
    Both parents have equal rights to abort? Ummm… what?

    That's pretty sexist. If the dude can't support the child then he should have worn a rubber and saved everybody time and money.
    Maybe he did wear a rubber…
    Maybe it failed…
    Maybe she pricked a hole in it…
    Maybe they were in a relationship and he trusted her and she lied about her birth control…

    There are any number of ways that this can happen. I know that the most fun method is to discredit the man. That damn dead beat! Those poor women! Look dude, you have fallen into the trap. Get out fast…
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  2. #352
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Where is the duty or obligation? I see none so I see no problem
    Any argument that starts with "She should have had an abortion" makes it a duty instead of a choice.

    But it isn’t about the child… it is about the woman’s choice.

    Choice = abortion or child
    Abortion = No child
    No child = no child support
    The parents are BOTH financially responsible from the child from the moment it is conceived until it turns 18. If it dies somewhere in between, then the financial responsibility ends.

    If she has an abortion… no child
    If she does not want to support the child on her own… have an abortion.

    What is so hard to grasp?
    That is NOT at all analogous to a man disavowing responsibility for his child. Let's take a look at how those outcomes would actually play out. Can we agree that a 50-50 split of financial responsibility is fair for "standard" cases...where both parents want the child (and assuming relatively equal incomes for simplicity)? OK, then let's look at how those two "choices" would actually play out to see if it's fair.

    The woman chooses to have an abortion: Man 0%, woman 0% (of the cost of raising the child).
    The woman chooses not to have an abortion: Man 50%, woman 50%.

    The man chooses to disavow responsibility: Man 0%, woman 100%.
    The man chooses to do the right thing and care for his kid: Man 50%, woman 50%.

    In NONE of these cases would the man be responsible for more than half of the responsibility of caring for the kid. In all of those situations EXCEPT the one you are advocating (allowing the man to run away from his financial obligations), the financial burden is equal on both parents. Therefore letting men disavow responsibility is NOT the same as a woman having an abortion; it's more analogous to the baby being born and then the woman disavowing responsibility...which is also not allowed by our legal system.

    Both parents have equal rights to abort? Ummm… what?
    Correct. If you get pregnant you're just as free to have an abortion as a woman is. If you're unable to exercise that right, blame biology rather than our legal system.

    Maybe he did wear a rubber…
    Maybe it failed…
    Maybe she pricked a hole in it…
    Maybe they were in a relationship and he trusted her and she lied about her birth control…
    The misogyny here is staggering. You start off saying that the WOMAN should have used birth control to prevent a pregnancy, and then when I point out that exactly the same thing could be said about the man, you immediately shift blame to this theoretical woman based on how she "might" have been a conniving bitch. I don't know what your deal is, but it sounds like you have some real issues with women.

    There are any number of ways that this can happen. I know that the most fun method is to discredit the man. That damn dead beat! Those poor women! Look dude, you have fallen into the trap. Get out fast…
    Your solution of allowing a father to disavow responsibility for his kids would stick the woman with 100% of the cost of raising the child. I have not advocated anything similar in the reverse.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-05-11 at 08:47 PM.
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  3. #353
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Nothing I did was appeal to emotion. Please try to be honest. Your initial post, to which spawned this whole thing, was your claim that the welfare of the child is considered in abortion. I responded by saying that's obviously not the case because the child ends up dead in abortion and that doesn't uphold the welfare of the child. You eventually came back with this "subjective" argument and then top it with the homeless guy choosing to die. He feels it's better for his "welfare" (not necessarily true, they could feel so hopeless that they're better off with no welfare (i.e. death) than trying to improve the current conditions). Now the subjective nature of welfare (I never stated it wasn't subjective; I merely claimed an absolute floor of requiring life) may be up to one's own subjective views on what they view is best for them; but you can only have a subjective view if you are alive. You can hold no views or truths or feelings or property or any of it when you are dead.

    The homeless man who chooses to die CANNOT BE HAPPIER IN DEATH. You cannot feel happiness when you are dead. That seems to be a point you are contesting, to which I asked for proof and got none. You instead claim that it wasn't your point, which is a lie because it follows logically from what you are trying to say. So either you do not comprehend fully what you are trying to say or you are lying about your point. The choice is yours. You claim welfare has meaning when dead and that when dead one could have achieved an increase in welfare. But nothing in welfare is valid when dead, welfare has no meaning to the dead. I cannot believe you would try to contend that point. Welfare is a term for the living.

    The rest of my post had every meaning on facts and your points. The fact you refuse to address them only further demonstrates your dishonest arguments on this topic.
    you must think lots of talking will make you right?

    what my first post said was, that when SOME people have an abortion they are doing it on what they feel is in the child's best welfare and that is 100% true.

    This is an inarguable fact whether you agree with it or not.

    You have don't nothing to dispute that besides try to play word games and appeal to emotion and push your opinion as fact.

    Ill repeat it again for you.

    "Some people have abortions because they feel its in the childs best welfare to do so"

    this is 100% true, that is why some people have abortions. FACT

    then you tried to twist everything, link welfare to living, which you can't for anybody but yourself. It is only your opinion they are linked and I proved that easily by reposting the definition that you arleady posted that you dont seem to understand.

    That fact that you think they are linked is only your opinion and will never be a fact, EVER. Welfare is a subjective choice nothing more.



    facts havent changed neither has your opinion.
    My original statement stands 100% let me know when that changes
    "Some people have abortions because they feel its in the childs best welfare to do so"
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  4. #354
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    you must think lots of talking will make you right?

    what my first post said was, that when SOME people have an abortion they are doing it on what they feel is in the child's best welfare and that is 100% true.

    This is an inarguable fact whether you agree with it or not.

    You have don't nothing to dispute that besides try to play word games and appeal to emotion and push your opinion as fact.

    Ill repeat it again for you.

    "Some people have abortions because they feel its in the childs best welfare to do so"

    this is 100% true, that is why some people have abortions. FACT

    then you tried to twist everything, link welfare to living, which you can't for anybody but yourself. It is only your opinion they are linked and I proved that easily by reposting the definition that you arleady posted that you dont seem to understand.

    That fact that you think they are linked is only your opinion and will never be a fact, EVER. Welfare is a subjective choice nothing more.



    facts havent changed neither has your opinion.
    My original statement stands 100% let me know when that changes
    "Some people have abortions because they feel its in the childs best welfare to do so"
    OK, some people may think that they are killing the kid for its own good, for its welfare. I can buy that. I don't buy that it actually improves their welfare since it ends in the kids actual death and when dead, welfare is a meaningless term.

    There is much in our lives that when we rationalize out "am I better off?" or some other question of general welfare, that no doubt we have a lot of subjective claim. Am I better of in X or Y? And we make our decision on mostly an incomplete data set since we may not have exactly experienced X or Y; a lot of subjectiveness comes in here. But that's not to say there are no measurables. There are certainly ways to assess welfare on some quantitative field. I could leave X for Y, and while in Y ask "am I better off?". The experiment is done, I can quantify the system. Am I happier? Am I working in a better environment? Do I have the time I like? That's a quantifier of the system, and I can now know if my welfare has been improved. When you keep saying it's "subjective" you talk as if there is no measurement to have; but welfare isn't some god that you can only postulate on. Welfare has real world effects, and because of that it has real world measurements. There are measurements, there is a way to quantify at least on some relative scale.

    In our reasoning, there is a lot of subjective nature. In our action, there is measurement.

    So as to your original statement, OK; I can buy that as true. As for the thinking of it and how it relates to the real world, it can't be true (not that one thinks abortion is better for one's welfare; but rather that abortion is] better for the child's welfare). Because in the end, death is the removal of all welfare. It's as I said before, someone on drugs may think they're flying. Doesn't make it so.
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  5. #355
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    OK, some people may think that they are killing the kid for its own good, for its welfare. I can buy that. I don't buy that it actually improves their welfare since it ends in the kids actual death and when dead, welfare is a meaningless term.

    There is much in our lives that when we rationalize out "am I better off?" or some other question of general welfare, that no doubt we have a lot of subjective claim. Am I better of in X or Y? And we make our decision on mostly an incomplete data set since we may not have exactly experienced X or Y; a lot of subjectiveness comes in here. But that's not to say there are no measurables. There are certainly ways to assess welfare on some quantitative field. I could leave X for Y, and while in Y ask "am I better off?". The experiment is done, I can quantify the system. Am I happier? Am I working in a better environment? Do I have the time I like? That's a quantifier of the system, and I can now know if my welfare has been improved. When you keep saying it's "subjective" you talk as if there is no measurement to have; but welfare isn't some god that you can only postulate on. Welfare has real world effects, and because of that it has real world measurements. There are measurements, there is a way to quantify at least on some relative scale.

    In our reasoning, there is a lot of subjective nature. In our action, there is measurement.

    So as to your original statement, OK; I can buy that as true. As for the thinking of it and how it relates to the real world, it can't be true (not that one thinks abortion is better for one's welfare; but rather that abortion is] better for the child's welfare). Because in the end, death is the removal of all welfare. It's as I said before, someone on drugs may think they're flying. Doesn't make it so.
    EXACTLY my original statement is 100% true, the rest of the games you play are meaningless and nothing more than you opinion, thanks

    game over
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  6. #356
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Did I say murder? No, I said your opinion is essentially "Better dead than poor". Because you think it's best for that kid to just not exist in the first place than it is to be born into that 21%.
    No, I think is that is wrong to bring child into the world without responsible parents to properly care for it.
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Her body, her decision. It's all on her to keep the baby or kill it. So she should have the right to force the man to pay for HER decision. That was her choice at that point. Keep or destroy, all hers. At that point the man is out, he just contributed jizm, right? So why do you suggest he be held responsible for HER decision?
    He made that decision when he ****ed the woman. That was his decision alone. No one forced him into it, and, unlike with the woman, he has no physical consequences that result from it. That is why an abortion is the decision of the woman.
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    Women just want to control their own bodies.
    Oddly enough, it is predominantly the conservatives that believe the government should control women's bodies.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #359
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    If a woman chooses to keep her pregnancy and have a child against the man's wishes and she chooses to not use her legal option of birth control and have an abortion, should the man have to pay child suport for her choice. Should the man have to pay Child Support if he does not want the child and the woman decides to not opt to have an abortion as a means of contraception?

    I think that he should not be legally liable if he does not want the child.

    The woman has all the choice and can not only keep the baby and make him pay, but she can keep the baby, not tell him about the baby and then hit him up 18 years later for back Child Support.This thread is not about a woman's right to choose. That is legal and fine and all that.

    This thread is about a woman's choice subjegating a man to the role of a wallet for 18 years due to the whim of a woman's choice to keep a child against his wishes. Before we hear the whole, he shoulda kept it in his pants and now he has no choice in the matter.

    That is understood. That is the law. The issue is, is the law fair?

    As far as I am aware, there is no case law that deals with him being forced due to her choice. There is law about her having a choice, but none about why he should have to pay for her choice. That being said, this thread is not about the law, but about what is right. This is also not about exceptions: ie, she found out 5 months into her pregnancy due to irregular cycles, etc.

    This is about the woman that gets pregnant when the man wants to leave the marriage, or the woman that pricks the condom when having sex with a guy that she just met so that she gets pregnant and wants nothing to do with him or the times that a one-nighter turns into an 18 year nightmare simply because she wanted the child more and the state backs her decision out of sexism.Are women not responsible?

    Can she not be held liable for her own decisions?If she wants the baby, that is fine. She should have the baby and the man should be able to be out of the picture, should he so choose. If she doesn not want to raise the child on her own with no support, then she should abort.

    Easy as that. That is her right. That is the law.

    Hopefull I have explained all of this well enough. Yes, this is about abortion and threads like this exist in the Abortion Forum, but this is also a poll. I would like to know what people think outside the abortion debating crowd.Be nice please and just stick to the poll.

    If tangents occur please make a thread in the Abortion Forum as would be appropriate.

    Thanks...
    No offense, but why do you keep posting this same thread over and over?

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/aborti...d-support.html

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...rump-mans.html

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/aborti...al-rights.html

  10. #360
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    EXACTLY my original statement is 100% true, the rest of the games you play are meaningless and nothing more than you opinion, thanks

    game over
    HAHA! Let us examine. You're original comment

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    this is NOT always the case, yes some mindless dont think about that [the welfare of the child] but the majority actually do and its WHY they abort. You may disagree with them but its still why they do it.
    My original response

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I do disagree since nothing is so damaging to the welfare of the child as death is. Death is oh so very permanent.
    Hmmm....games I played? No no no. Quit lying and at least be honest in debate. Not that I was playing, what YOU were playing. See you now claim you said "Some people have abortions because they feel its in the childs best welfare to do so". Now, note your ORIGINAL statement. It's not the same thing. Word games by me? Please. I think you were just hoping I wasn't going to go back and check up. See what you say in your original statement is that MANY think about the welfare of the child and make a response. Not that they think they're doing what's best in the child's interest. You said I can disagree, and I said I do disagree because killing a child is NOT looking out for a child's best interest.

    It seems that it is YOU who are changing their tune and trying to make it sound like you said something different from the start. My original comment and all those which followed up stand. I DO NOT believe they do think about the welfare of the child because death is the end of welfare. Welfare only applies to the living. That statement is still very true, as is my original response to your post and all subsequent posts. Now, quit trying to change what you said and just fess up and be a man about it. People make mistakes in arguments all the time, it's ok. You messed up here, but I'm sure you will be well more dutiful in your arguments in the future.
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