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Thread: Child Support Payments

  1. #131
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    A man can force a woman to pay for a child she does not want for 18 years as well
    not if she has an abortion. he doesn't have that option
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  2. #132
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    I agree with you. Both the man and woman bear equal responsibility for the creation of life. It just so happens that the woman is the receptacle for this life, which is why her choice over abortion or childbirth favors her power in this situation. If, hypothetically, the situation were reverse and the males of our species carried the fetuses, then I would argue for their rights over the women.

    I also agree that there is a gender-heavy aspect to this debate, but it's not because I'm some feminist who wants the default to be the woman's right. It has to do more with natural determinism. The woman has more power because nature has made it this way. The man gives up some sperm and then, biologically speaking, his job is done. You're making it seem like I'm being heavy handed against men out of spite, but I promise you that's not where I'm coming from.

    When I say the man should have kept it in his pants, the same of true of the woman; however, given the legal system and the biological imbalance of power, men are actually MORE at risk of losing their power to choose here. This is why it's even more important that men be careful which partners they choose and who they sleep with.
    Arguments of nature and biology go both ways, you've merely taken the one which best fits your argument. Women have the kids, it could be argued that then the power of balance is shifted to the men as they have the ability to not face the repercussions of biology and hence the women are under the higher standards and strain. If they get pregnant and the guy leaves, they are still responsible for the child since they are the ones who physically carry the child. The counter argument to "You should have kept it in your pants" is "You shouldn't have opened your legs for a guy of that caliber". Wherein the blame is shifted off the man and onto the woman; just as you choose to shift blame off of the woman and place it upon the man. The other response to the question you posed to me earlier in the light of the rhetoric you use would be "Too bad, you have the child. Should have made a better choice of sexual partner".

    The point being that y'all use some rather hefty double standards to impose repercussion of action against one sex while excusing it from the other. But all those arguments can go the other way and the only real reason we choose one over the is perception of how it will fit into the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    I don't understand. Why is such a legal contract contingent upon a woman's right to abort? Are we playing tit for tat here? A lot of women in America don't choose abortion, and if they didn't intend to get pregnant, the options for the child must come into effect.

    I appreciate this hypothetical discussion but in reality you can't isolate the factors. Women have more reproductive control - it's just reality. We live in a patriarchy for the most part and men have other special powers. This is one power they don't have, and IMO this is the reason why we are having this argument: men are pissed that they don't have as much reproductive control as women. But this isn't about feminism... it's just biology.

    And at the end of the day, children matter more. I know, I know, people are sick of "think about the children!" arguments, in this case it's true. The most effective way to minimize social burden here is making the man pay - and that has never been contingent upon a woman's right to choose. Child welfare is still a separate topic from abortion rights and male reproductive rights. If the kid is born then someone has to care for it. I'd rather it be the two people who made it than anyone else.
    It's essentially "tit for tat" in a sense. That being that if one side has the ability to divorce themselves from repercussion of action, then all sides should have the same ability.
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post

    It's essentially "tit for tat" in a sense. That being that if one side has the ability to divorce themselves from repercussion of action, then all sides should have the same ability.
    exactly .
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  4. #134
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    not if she has an abortion. he doesn't have that option
    Legally he can, biologically he cant, and we are talking about legal rights here, not biological ones
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post

    It's essentially "tit for tat" in a sense. That being that if one side has the ability to divorce themselves from repercussion of action, then all sides should have the same ability.
    So to make each person have repercussions from their actions regarding pregnancy, should men be given drugs that make them sick in the morning, gain about 30 lbs or so and eventually pass a bowling ball through their penis?
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Legally he can, biologically he cant, and we are talking about legal rights here, not biological ones
    he has no legal right to prevent her from having an abortion
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Niether parent has the individual right to not support a child once it is born, both can agree to give it up for adoption
    I am not sure why you are being redundant. I have addressed this and clarified that this is not the point of the OP.
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    So to make each person have repercussions from their actions regarding pregnancy, should men be given drugs that make them sick in the morning, gain about 30 lbs or so and eventually pass a bowling ball through their penis?
    disingenuous at the core. a sure sign of desperation
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Arguments of nature and biology go both ways, you've merely taken the one which best fits your argument. Women have the kids, it could be argued that then the power of balance is shifted to the men as they have the ability to not face the repercussions of biology and hence the women are under the higher standards and strain. If they get pregnant and the guy leaves, they are still responsible for the child since they are the ones who physically carry the child. The counter argument to "You should have kept it in your pants" is "You shouldn't have opened your legs for a guy of that caliber". Wherein the blame is shifted off the man and onto the woman; just as you choose to shift blame off of the woman and place it upon the man. The other response to the question you posed to me earlier in the light of the rhetoric you use would be "Too bad, you have the child. Should have made a better choice of sexual partner".

    The point being that y'all use some rather hefty double standards to impose repercussion of action against one sex while excusing it from the other. But all those arguments can go the other way and the only real reason we choose one over the is perception of how it will fit into the argument.



    It's essentially "tit for tat" in a sense. That being that if one side has the ability to divorce themselves from repercussion of action, then all sides should have the same ability.
    All this is great but you haven't addressed the fate of the born child at all.

    If the man doesn't have to take responsibility and the woman doesn't abort, what then?

    Before child support laws, men did exactly that. The laws came into place precisely because of deadbeat dads. I'll say the statistic again... 84% of single parents are women, the rest are men. And guess what, child support laws work in reverse as well. There are single dads who have to go after deadbeat mothers for support to. The law is applied fairly.

    Now, are you going to address the core issue of child welfare, or are you going to keep fiddling with gender power dynamics? Please provide an outline for how children will be cared for if men can "financially abort".

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    he has no legal right to prevent her from having an abortion
    Nor does anyone else. That's between a woman and her doctor, and sometimes abortion is medically necessary.

    Please let me know how the born child will be supported once the man opts out. Thanks.

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