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Thread: Child Support Payments

  1. #121
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    I disagree... there are clear differences in the two matters. One is about bodily control, the other is about finances. If a woman aborts then the economic burden to society is nil; if she has the child, the system tends to require the father to give support. Now let's look at the proposed male side... let the man decide if he wants to financially abort or not.

    If you're pro-life and supporting this legal ability of men to shirk responsibility, then you are double-screwing the woman. She has to have the kid AND she has no help because the father gets to opt out. How the hell is that remotely fair, to the child OR the woman?

    I don't believe that abortion is the most equitable solution. If anything it's a necessarily evil. But trying to equalize that by letting fathers arbitrarily decide if they will help out or not is outrageous. Look at the statistic I posted above.

    AND you're libertarian on top of it, which I'm going to assume means you are in favor of restrictions to social welfare?

    So tell me, what is your proposed solution to single mothers, in this case? Now that she can't abort, AND the father is legally out of the picture.
    No, what I believe and what I'll argue for the case of this hypothetical are two different things. In reality, abortion is legal and women have the privilege to opt that child out of life. But if they don't, then the kid is still there and the man has to pay up. That's reality and that's not going to change. So the purpose of these sorts of threads are purely hypothetical and we're released from any real world moral quandary.

    In that light, I use your arguments because your arguments reverse side heavily depending on gender. No woman is forced (outside of rape) to become pregnant, there was always a choice and it takes two. People keep saying "well the man should have kept it in his pants", but that essentially assumes that the woman is a non-contributor to the initial sex act. But she had a choice as well. There was always a choice. The choice has probability of creating life and in the case of abortion/child support that probability is realized. In the purely theoretical context of divorce from responsibility, if one side is given it (and regardless of how you want to define life or whatever so that people can feel better in the real world about what they are doing, abortion is the extinguishing of life for the current convenience of the one involved) then both sides are given it. If the woman can abort and chooses not to, she cannot force the man to support HER decision.

    In a real world application as it would relate to your final statement; if abortion were not legal such that the woman could not abort; then there would be no circumstance other than mutual agreement/contract under which the man could shirk his financial responsibility to the child.
    Last edited by Ikari; 09-01-11 at 06:42 PM.
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Eugenics =/= Mandatory Birth Control

    Eugenics is a pro-active program in order to breed certain traits that the nation deems desirable. Mandatory birth control is done to help ensure that only those who have the responsibility and capability to take care of a child are allowed to have children.

    Those are two totally different things.
    You can split hairs all you want. Forcing young boys and girls to go to the doctor to get implants or be drugged is eugenic and unethical. The rich would buy their way out of this obligation as they do in places like China.

    A system like that can never be fully implemented without huge cost, and its impact would ultimately be unequal. Education and family planning are far more effective in increasing social wellness. Think about it. We still have abstinence-only beliefs out there, but for the most part the education system teaches responsible choices and preventative measures. All data shows this is working.

    We don't need anymore expansion of government power into reproduction.

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So? The entire abortion issue is this line of though. People removed the child aspect from their minds and only thought about what is "fair" to the woman. It's the same logic. You just make your definitions so that it fits your argument is all. It's nothing different. I don't see why you'd endorse a logic in one case, but change gender and all of a sudden your against the same logic.
    damn, there is that pesky double standard thing again. it's all fine and good to remove the child aspect from the debate.....as long as we are talking about the woman's choice.
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    You can split hairs all you want. Forcing young boys and girls to go to the doctor to get implants or be drugged is eugenic and unethical. The rich would buy their way out of this obligation as they do in places like China.

    A system like that can never be fully implemented without huge cost, and its impact would ultimately be unequal. Education and family planning are far more effective in increasing social wellness. Think about it. We still have abstinence-only beliefs out there, but for the most part the education system teaches responsible choices and preventative measures. All data shows this is working.

    We don't need anymore expansion of government power into reproduction.
    obviously you have no clue what Eugenics is.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    funny though, the same people who are crying that they don't want the govt telling them they can't have babies are the same people crying that a woman should be able to abort as many babies as she wants. just goes to show you that it isn't about the kid, it's about power. plain and simple.
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  6. #126
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    You can split hairs all you want. Forcing young boys and girls to go to the doctor to get implants or be drugged is eugenic and unethical.
    No, it is not eugenic. Again, eugenics is control of reproduction in order to harness certain physical traits. That's the definition of that word.

    My mandatory birth control program applies to everyone who gets a 2-year degree on parenting. It doesn't matter if they're blond or brunette, Caucasian, Asian, or African, Christian, Jewish, or Muslim - as long as they get the degree in parenting they're allowed to be parents.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, what I believe and what I'll argue for the case of this hypothetical are two different things. In reality, abortion is legal and women have the privilege to opt that child out of life. But if they don't, then the kid is still there and the man has to pay up. That's reality and that's not going to change. So the purpose of these sorts of threads are purely hypothetical and we're released from any real world moral quandary.
    Ok... I agree to this scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    In that light, I use your arguments because your arguments reverse side heavily depending on gender. No woman is forced (outside of rape) to become pregnant, there was always a choice and it takes two. People keep saying "well the man should have kept it in his pants", but that essentially assumes that the woman is a non-contributor to the initial sex act. But she had a choice as well. There was always a choice. The choice has probability of creating life and in the case of abortion/child support that probability is realized. In the purely theoretical context of divorce from responsibility, if one side is given it (and regardless of how you want to define life or whatever so that people can feel better in the real world about what they are doing, abortion is the extinguishing of life for the current convenience of the one involved) then both sides are given it. If the woman can abort and chooses not to, she cannot force the man to support HER decision.
    I agree with you. Both the man and woman bear equal responsibility for the creation of life. It just so happens that the woman is the receptacle for this life, which is why her choice over abortion or childbirth favors her power in this situation. If, hypothetically, the situation were reverse and the males of our species carried the fetuses, then I would argue for their rights over the women.

    I also agree that there is a gender-heavy aspect to this debate, but it's not because I'm some feminist who wants the default to be the woman's right. It has to do more with natural determinism. The woman has more power because nature has made it this way. The man gives up some sperm and then, biologically speaking, his job is done. You're making it seem like I'm being heavy handed against men out of spite, but I promise you that's not where I'm coming from.

    When I say the man should have kept it in his pants, the same of true of the woman; however, given the legal system and the biological imbalance of power, men are actually MORE at risk of losing their power to choose here. This is why it's even more important that men be careful which partners they choose and who they sleep with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    In a real world application as it would relate to your final statement; if abortion were not legal such that the woman could not abort; then there would be no circumstance other than mutual agreement/contract under which the man could shirk his financial responsibility to the child.
    I don't understand. Why is such a legal contract contingent upon a woman's right to abort? Are we playing tit for tat here? A lot of women in America don't choose abortion, and if they didn't intend to get pregnant, the options for the child must come into effect.

    I appreciate this hypothetical discussion but in reality you can't isolate the factors. Women have more reproductive control - it's just reality. We live in a patriarchy for the most part and men have other special powers. This is one power they don't have, and IMO this is the reason why we are having this argument: men are pissed that they don't have as much reproductive control as women. But this isn't about feminism... it's just biology.

    And at the end of the day, children matter more. I know, I know, people are sick of "think about the children!" arguments, in this case it's true. The most effective way to minimize social burden here is making the man pay - and that has never been contingent upon a woman's right to choose. Child welfare is still a separate topic from abortion rights and male reproductive rights. If the kid is born then someone has to care for it. I'd rather it be the two people who made it than anyone else.

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    No, it is not eugenic. Again, eugenics is control of reproduction in order to harness certain physical traits. That's the definition of that word.

    My mandatory birth control program applies to everyone who gets a 2-year degree on parenting. It doesn't matter if they're blond or brunette, Caucasian, Asian, or African, Christian, Jewish, or Muslim - as long as they get the degree in parenting they're allowed to be parents.
    YES it is eugenics, because who do you think will get accepted the most to have children? It will be the higher financial classes and people with more status and power. The poor and uneducated will have lesser access. Honestly, did you think this through or what? Who determines parental readiness? Who determines criteria? Are we trying to create a monoculture here? Does E Pluribus Unum mean nothing to you?

    Any time that government is given control over reproduction, it becomes biased to people who are deemed "useful" to society. I would rather evolution play out and let people be born who are meant to be born - whether they are poor or rich. Our most important people have come from all backgrounds.

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    YES it is eugenics, because who do you think will get accepted the most to have children? It will be the higher financial classes and people with more status and power. The poor and uneducated will have lesser access. Honestly, did you think this through or what? Who determines parental readiness? Who determines criteria? Are we trying to create a monoculture here? Does E Pluribus Unum mean nothing to you?

    Any time that government is given control over reproduction, it becomes biased to people who are deemed "useful" to society. I would rather evolution play out and let people be born who are meant to be born - whether they are poor or rich. Our most important people have come from all backgrounds.
    as I said, make the standards ridiculously low, be in a commited relationship and one of the parents have a job.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    if a man can't force a woman to carry a child she doesn't want for 9 months, a woman shouldn't be able to force a man to pay for a child he doesn't want for 18 years.
    A man can force a woman to pay for a child she does not want for 18 years as well
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