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Thread: Child Support Payments

  1. #111
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    I'll reiterate, what grows inside her uterus is NOT just a part of her. Explain to me how that is not the father's child, as well as the mother's, in development. I'm all for holding the deadbeat dads to pay support IF men are given a say in abortions. Furthermore, while we argue about this, I have another point to make. Statistically speaking, if only one parent wants the child born then more often it is the mother and not the father. So, if we hold the parent who doesn't want the kid financially responsible to an extent then the women are going to be the ones winning anyways.
    A fetus is completely dependent on the mother after fertilization. The male plays no biological role after fertilization. The father's only role after that is to help the mother provide support for the child after it is born.

    No one is forcing men to produce babies without their consent.
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  2. #112
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    People are removing the child aspect from their minds and only thinking about what is fair to the man.
    So? The entire abortion issue is this line of though. People removed the child aspect from their minds and only thought about what is "fair" to the woman. It's the same logic. You just make your definitions so that it fits your argument is all. It's nothing different. I don't see why you'd endorse a logic in one case, but change gender and all of a sudden your against the same logic.
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    a single tear rolls down my cheek. as Ikari said, it's not about the kid, it's about power. you and yours want the women to have all the power...as long as the man has to pay for it.
    In terms of my perception - that's not true. Please see the other posts I've made in this thread. If all you desire is to make this debate personal instead of addressing my actual posts and arguments, then I have no further need to respond to you.

    I do agree that this is about power, but it has nothing to do with women absorbing all the power. They have more choice because they have the greater reproductive burden. The MEN in this thread are trying to equalize a perceived discrimination by giving men more abortion rights, but men don't carry children so it's a silly argument.

    If you want to financially abort then that is possible at present. Approach the woman and if she agrees you two can enter into contract to disavow responsibility. If she doesn't agree, then tough luck. She definitely has more power, but it's not because we live in a pro-female system; it's because women have more reproductive power in general.

    Throughout history this has always been the case. Women have been the child bearers and the symbols of family. It's for a reason: their nature grants them these abilities. Men have more freedom of detachment, which is why child support laws exist... to drag them back to their responsibilities.

    84% of single parents are mothers; just 16% are fathers. This demonstrates the disparity pretty well. Men, by their nature, are able to spread their genes over a wider range, involving many partners. In the modern world there are more resource burdens and men MUST be involved otherwise social systems have to take over.

    I'm not paying for your child's upbringing because you want to shirk responsibility.

  4. #114
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    forced temporary infertility for everyone until the age of 21. you need a license to drive a car for pity's sake, why not one to produce a child? make the standards incredibly low...say, I don't know, maybe having a job?
    I'll see your forced temporary infertility but I'll raise you so that in order for the mandatory birth control to be suspended you have to get a 2-year college degree in parenting instead.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  5. #115
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    9 months versus 18 years. you do the math
    18 years as primary care giver, and 9 mos of carrying the baby and childbirth by the mom vs 18 years by the dad. Sounds like a hell of deal for the dad to me!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #116
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A fetus is completely dependent on the mother after fertilization. The male plays no biological role after fertilization. The father's only role after that is to help the mother provide support for the child after it is born.

    No one is forcing men to produce babies without their consent.
    and no one is forcing women to produce babies without their consent.

    damn that double standard, it just keeps popping up
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    18 years as primary care giver, and 9 mos of carrying the baby and childbirth by the mom vs 18 years by the dad. Sounds like a hell of deal for the dad to me!
    which would be fine, as long as daddy could opt to be the primary care giver and raise the kid when mom decided it was too inconvenient or GASP "risky" to go through with the pregnancy.
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So? The entire abortion issue is this line of though. People removed the child aspect from their minds and only thought about what is "fair" to the woman. It's the same logic. You just make your definitions so that it fits your argument is all. It's nothing different. I don't see why you'd endorse a logic in one case, but change gender and all of a sudden your against the same logic.
    I disagree... there are clear differences in the two matters. One is about bodily control, the other is about finances. If a woman aborts then the economic burden to society is nil; if she has the child, the system tends to require the father to give support. Now let's look at the proposed male side... let the man decide if he wants to financially abort or not.

    If you're pro-life and supporting this legal ability of men to shirk responsibility, then you are double-screwing the woman. She has to have the kid AND she has no help because the father gets to opt out. How the hell is that remotely fair, to the child OR the woman?

    I don't believe that abortion is the most equitable solution. If anything it's a necessarily evil. But trying to equalize that by letting fathers arbitrarily decide if they will help out or not is outrageous. Look at the statistic I posted above.

    AND you're libertarian on top of it, which I'm going to assume means you are in favor of restrictions to social welfare?

    So tell me, what is your proposed solution to single mothers, in this case? Now that she can't abort, AND the father is legally out of the picture. Please answer this question, since you and everyone has avoided it.

    You may live in fantasy land where abortions are universally considered murder, but that's not reality. Right now we are talking about born children. You can twist that into a women's power thing all you want, I could care less. I care more about children and the burden to society. If you gave up your sperm to impregnate someone, then you aren't free of responsibility - to suggest otherwise is delusional.
    Last edited by Temporal; 09-01-11 at 06:34 PM.

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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    We already tried giving the government control over reproduction... it was the Eugenics era. It was a miserable failure and a social disaster.

    The government has no place controlling people's reproductive systems, and even if they could, I cannot think of any method that can be safely employed to stop people from reproducing that has no side effects. Even the birth control pill if used long-term can really mess up your hormone system and permanently affect your reproductive abilities.
    Eugenics =/= Mandatory Birth Control

    Eugenics is a pro-active program in order to breed certain traits that the nation deems desirable. Mandatory birth control is done to help ensure that only those who have the responsibility and capability to take care of a child are allowed to have children.

    Those are two totally different things.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  10. #120
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    Re: Child Support Payments

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    A fetus is completely dependent on the mother after fertilization. The male plays no biological role after fertilization. The father's only role after that is to help the mother provide support for the child after it is born.

    No one is forcing men to produce babies without their consent.
    ...and unless she is dumber than a box of rocks, the mother knew this before she screwed!

    A man who wants the kid, like I would, will likely help take care of the woman DURING her pregnancy. I remember my stepfather running to Hardees to get my mother a hot ham and cheese on demand when she was pregnant.
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