View Poll Results: Please Read the First Post

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  • The woman in fact pattern one

    10 22.73%
  • The store owner in fact pattern two

    9 20.45%
  • They both have the right to kill

    17 38.64%
  • Neither has the right to kill

    8 18.18%
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Thread: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

  1. #21
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    And what happens if the thief ignores the owner's oders to freeze? If the owner doesn't have the right to fire the weapon, why listen to him? If you can't fire a gun, its basically a big stick. Not very scary.

    Not to mention, what happens if the thief decides to attack? Or dives for cover and then pulls his own gun? The owner has the advantage with the gun presumable already drawn and aimed, but why needlessly put yourself at risk (no matter how minimal)?

    If you believe in property rights, then it's only logical that we also have the right to defend our property. And that means using force (including lethal) to enforce those rights.
    Didn't say he didn't have the right to shoot him and if he attacks the owner then by all means he has the right to kill him.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Inspired by the responses by both conservatives and liberals in: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    FACT PATTERN ONE: A woman is raped and becomes pregnant. The fetus certainly has no evil intentions, but its unwanted presence in the woman's body is causing her moderate-to-serious emotional and psychological trauma. The fetus is two weeks old. She is seeking an abortion. The woman is known to be sexually promiscuous but has taken care to prevent pregnancy while engaging in consensual sex in the past. She has no family to take care of the child for her or help her but has sufficient money and means to raise it herself without sending herself into significant debt.

    FACT PATTERN TWO: A thief climbs over a fence and into the parking lot of a car dealership, intending to steal money or property to pay for his serious drug addiction. He has no intention of hurting anyone -- he believes the property to be empty of employees for the night. As such, he is armed with only a small pocket-knife which he carries on his person at all times. Unbeknownst to him, the store owner is sitting in his office and sees the guy come over the fence. Sensing that the guy is probably a thief, the owner pulls out his shot-gun, barrels out of the building. He wants to shoot the man for trespassing. He thinks the guy might have a gun but is mostly just furious the thief would dare attempt to steal from him. The thief has been on his property for all of forty seconds. The thief has no family to miss him or to ensure that he stays in compliance with the law. The store owner has a wife and kids and enough money to cover losses due to theft without sending his company or himself into significant debt.

    The poll question is: who has the stronger right to kill? Why? Also, which right should be valued more highly -- the right to control of one's property, or the right to control of one's body? How does culpability play into this question? And anything else you would like to add?
    uhm anybody that actually read the other thread about the burglars couldnt possible take this seriously LOL

    its a joke Ill pass on.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by DashingAmerican View Post
    Didn't say he didn't have the right to shoot him and if he attacks the owner then by all means he has the right to kill him.
    You said the owner had no right to kill him. A gunshot, even when aimed at "non vital" areas carries a distinct possibility of inflicting death.

    If you believe in property rights, than the owner has the right to use lethal force the minute the thief stepped onto his property and demonstrated criminal intent. Detaining them, scaring them off, or all these other things are only effective if there is a real threat of lethal force behind them.

    Some people have suggested that you have no right to kill someone over property. Let's imagine this was the law of the land. You can never use lethal force to defend your property. A thief breaks into your house. You confront him with a gun and demand that he stop. If you cannot actually use the gun in defense of your property, it's useless. If the thief knows that you cannot shoot him for "mere" theft or you will be accused of murder, why should he obey your command? He could just simply turn his back to you and continue robbing you. If you shoot him, you're going down for murder. So you're forced to just stand there and watch this guy rob you blind while you hold what has become a useless hunk of metal since you cannot use it defend your property.

    Now I know this scenario isn't very realistic. Most thieves wouldn't chance it, but according to some folks if I ordered a thief to stop and he didn't and just continued robbing me, I'd still be wrong to shoot him because it was "only" about property. They make silly claims that no piece of property is worth taking a life over. I disagree 100%. My property is easily more valuable to me than the life of some scumbag thief.

    As for defending yourself against attack, I ask again, why do I have to expose myself to risk and wait for him to make his intentions to cause me bodily harm known? He's already shown a complete disregard for the law and the rights of others. That alone is enough to label him a potential threat and thus be dealt with under the banner of self defense. Giving him a chance to react by saying "Freeze" or whatever, just puts me at risk.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    The former clearly has the greater right to kill, being subject to violation of her body, but I'd argue that they are both entirely within their rights to kill. In the latter case, the dealership owner has no way of knowing the intruder's intentions, mental state, or whether or not he is armed. When dealing with unknown persons, one should always assume that they are armed and make no assumptions about their intentions.

  5. #25
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    The former clearly has the greater right to kill, being subject to violation of her body,
    ah...but WHO does she have the greater right to kill? her rapist, who violated her or the innocent fetus who is as much a victim as is she?
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    In my mind, both are legitimate scenarios, although I won't argue that the first is "killing" unless you buy into that "life begins at conception" crap.

    At two weeks...well, first of all let's get rid of the emotional plea and not call it a fetus. Biology has indisputable evidence that it is not a fetus. If you abort, you're doing nothing more dangerous than washing dead skin cells off your body in the shower, or picking at a scab.

    As far as the case we've been discussing, the right to someone's property, and own personal safety, should be tantamount, barring extreme circumstances. The fact that this situation had so many variables means that the only constant toward the owner's safety would be subject neutralization. Now if this is hurt, unconscious, or dead, I don't give a damn. When someone breaks into your property with intent for malice and harm - weapon status immaterial - you should be granted the ability to defend your life, liberty, and property.

    And as far as I'm concerned, once you violate another's rights, especially maliciously, your rights immediately become compromised.

  7. #27
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    ah...but WHO does she have the greater right to kill? her rapist, who violated her or the innocent fetus who is as much a victim as is she?
    If she killed the rapist when she had the right to, there wouldn't be a fetus for her to have the same right to kill.

  8. #28
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    Inspired by the responses by both conservatives and liberals in: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    FACT PATTERN ONE: A woman is raped and becomes pregnant. The fetus certainly has no evil intentions, but its unwanted presence in the woman's body is causing her moderate-to-serious emotional and psychological trauma. The fetus is two weeks old. She is seeking an abortion. The woman is known to be sexually promiscuous but has taken care to prevent pregnancy while engaging in consensual sex in the past. She has no family to take care of the child for her or help her but has sufficient money and means to raise it herself without sending herself into significant debt.
    LET'S STOP RIGHT THERE!!

    This is a brilliant example of the demonisation of all and any women seeking abortion

    What on this earth or the next does the woman's sexual experience, proclivity or orientation have to do with the case??

    I guess any woman wanting an abortion just has to fit into one and only one category

    Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?-barbie_slut-jpg
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    Me thinks thou doth protest too much...

  10. #30
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    Re: Hypothetical: Who has the Stronger Right to Kill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krhazy View Post
    The poll question is: who has the stronger right to kill?
    False dichotomy.

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