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Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

What would a welfare that rewards self-sufficiency look like? Select all that apply:

  • 1.) It would not allow recipients more than is needed to survive

    Votes: 5 45.5%

  • 2.) The reward for getting off welfare would be: recipients could afford more than necessities

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • 3.) programs would be temporary (recipients can only be on welfare for a certain period)

    Votes: 7 63.6%

  • 4.) It would grant small monetary payouts for every step forward

    Votes: 5 45.5%

  • 5.) Recipients would experience a sufficiently higher standard of living after getting off welfare

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Total voters
    11
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Just1Voice said:
I have seen this argument pop up over and over since Reagan was in office, and I still have a lot of trouble with it. You make it sound as if "Welfare Motherhood" has become a career track.

If this is really the case, and it can be proven, then why is there no movement to do something about it aside from getting rid of welfare programs entirely? Why hasn't anyone proposed making such a thing illegal with an automatic penalty including removal of the children into the custody of child protective services and a choice of jail time or voluntary sterilization? It strikes me that if it were possible to prove there were such a creature as a "career track welfare mom," this would already be happening.

It seems far more likely that having no real job-skills and a few kids simply makes a single mother unemployable. Without the money to pay for child care while she seeks out better training and a job that can meet the needs of her family, what choice does she have but to stay at home, on welfare and try to raise the kids?

If there were a way to prove that women were doing this on purpose, and were not simply forced into it for lack of any acceptable alternative, I would be in favor of making this choice a criminal act. It has victims - the children and the state, and both deserve justice.
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You can't really prove it happens, but it does. No woman is going to say, "Yes, officer, I had the two little ones because I needed those benefits". I know two women in Michigan who intentionally had babies to prolong their benefits, so I've seen it happen. Does that mean every mom does it? No. Is it an argument for revising the system? Perhaps. More children means more difficulty in finding and keeping work. Part of decentivizing welfare means we should encourage decreased family size until such time as the parents are self-sufficient. I loathe to mention it, but free birth control (not the pill, more likely Mirena, since it lasts 5 years and requires little upkeep) is definitely something that needs to be put on the table.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

RiverDad said:
Off the top of my head.

#1 - Make getting welfare a miserable experience. The only purpose here is to make getting a job a more attractive alternative.
#2 - Make sure that people won't starve and that they have a roof over their head. This doesn't mean that they get to continue living in their own homes and eating as they please. If people want welfare to help support them then make them move into a barracks and have designated meal times. See point #1.
#3 - When someone is given welfare they sign over to a public trustee all of their assets. Following the rules laid down by society, the trustee starts liquidating some of the assets in order to minimize the cost of welfare to the public. See point #1.

Now on the proactive side.

A. - Offer employers a bonus to hire welfare people. Pay the bonus for a year. This gives the welfare person time to show good work habits that other employers will value. It gives them the ability to earn a recommendation from their boss. It gives them time to learn life habits associated with working for a living.
B. - Give some type of bonus to the welfare recipient if they manage to stay on their job for a year.
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One question ... how do you define "miserable"?

Also, how "miserable" do you think the system should people's lives be who have disabilities?
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:
I am in agreement with essentially everything that you have proposed.
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Damn! Don't do this to me!!! :doh

MusicAdventurer said:
However I do have a few questions regarding a few of your comments/statements (see below):
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Oh no. I hope you disagree with my answers. :roll:

MusicAdventurer said:
I am wondering what you consider the course of action for such people should be? I am also wondering if you are aware of current scientific evidence that supports the theory that drug and alcohol (substance) abuse and dependence are considered mental health issues [the current issue of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) includes the various]. Do you believe that mental health disorders exist and do you believe that substance abuse and dependence disorders exist? How do you think the welfare system should deal with recipients who have been diagnosed with such disorders?
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I don't know whether or not it is a mental disorder. They should be treated one time and then once treated no more treatment or aid; unless, some charity wants to handle it. Actually, I think it best that if they repeat, that we just shoot them.

MusicAdventurer said:
I am assuming that you are proposing that if they don't like to work or be told what to do, they either have work despite these dislikes and if they do not work, they should not receive welfare. Is this correct? If so, I agree with you.
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Make them work and if they don't work, shoot them.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

liblady said:
you're right, but don't all states have limits? florida has a lifetime limit of 5 years. you have to have a child in the HH to get welfare. you also do have to work, so a person is contributing. i'm not sure what other limits can be placed, logically.
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I think the program should be completely revised. Make job training programs mandatory and provide them at no cost. If the parent refuses to take these course they lose benefits. Force them to learn a marketable skill that will give them the opportunity to earn and provide for themselves better than welfare does. We should make it easier for them to become self-sufficient, not just make it easier for them to survive on a pittance.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:
One question ... how do you define "miserable"?

Also, how "miserable" do you think the system should people's lives be who have disabilities?
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Disabilities are a different case.

To the extent that someone is born with a disability, that's life lottery in action and any of us could have been struck, so I don't have a problem with the "winners" helping out those who are physically incapable of working.

To the extent that a disability arises from living life and just having an accident, we should all be paying into our own insurance schemes to guard against such an event striking us. For kids, the insurance should be paid for by their parents. I've never had my house burn down, ever, but every year I pay insurance to cover me in case I get unlucky.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

LesGovt said:
Actually, I think it best that if they repeat, that we just shoot them.

Make them work and if they don't work, shoot them.
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Caution!

Words may sometimes be written with a different actual intent in mind. ROFL!
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Blue Dog said:
Unfortunately, along the same lines there are some single mothers on public assistance who purposely get pregnant to increase the size of the benefit.
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it would be interesting to see some stats of # in a household receiving welfare, as the average HH size is quite low, overall. 2.6 maybe?
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

LesGovt said:
Damn! Don't do this to me!!! :doh

Oh no. I hope you disagree with my answers. :roll:
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Lol!

LesGovt said:
I don't know whether or not it is a mental disorder. They should be treated one time and then once treated no more treatment or aid; unless, some charity wants to handle it. Actually, I think it best that if they repeat, that we just shoot them.
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YAY!! We disagree on something .. :) ... As a psychologist, I definitively believe they are mental disorders and I'm not sure shooting them is the answer, lol!

LesGovt said:
Make them work and if they don't work, shoot them.
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Again .. I don't think we agree on this one ... :)
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

liblady said:
you're right, but don't all states have limits? florida has a lifetime limit of 5 years. you have to have a child in the HH to get welfare. you also do have to work, so a person is contributing. i'm not sure what other limits can be placed, logically.
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TANF is one of the last, original welfare programs.
It has now changed, where EITC, state food stamp programs and Medicaid take the place of monthly direct cash payments.

There is no time limit on EITC, State food stamps and Medicaid.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

RiverDad said:
Disabilities are a different case.

To the extent that someone is born with a disability, that's life lottery in action and any of us could have been struck, so I don't have a problem with the "winners" helping out those who are physically incapable of working.
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How do you feel about mental disorders? Do you consider them a form of disability? Do you consider them somewhat "lottery-like" in nature?

RiverDad said:
To the extent that a disability arises from living life and just having an accident, we should all be paying into our own insurance schemes to guard against such an event striking us. For kids, the insurance should be paid for by their parents. I've never had my house burn down, ever, but every year I pay insurance to cover me in case I get unlucky.
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Good point .. this is like mandatory car insurance right?
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:
Again .. I don't think we agree on this one ... :)
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Whew! I feel vindicated. :roll:
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Easy... just reform welfare so it's not something that people only have when they're down on their luck. Universal support systems like healthcare, housing, and job placement will protect people from the ravages of poverty, and will remove any concept of "being on welfare". There will simply be a minimum standard of living, as opposed to any form of welfare.

I also don't think we should discount that people naturally define themselves by what they do (at least in western culture). We determine our identities by our professions. No one really wants to describe themselves as "lazy bum". At least, not past college. The vast majority of welfare recipients try very hard to change their situation.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:
How do you feel about mental disorders? Do you consider them a form of disability? Do you consider them somewhat "lottery-like" in nature?
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Incapacitating mental disorders are a disability but things like anxiety disorder or wanting to be a hermit, I don't consider to be disabilities worthy of public support.

We all have baggage of some sort that we carry around. This is why I actually favor insurance companies doing genetic screening. There is no perfect genome. We all have to put up with something. Someone has a greater predisposition to breast cancer, someone else has a greater predisposition towards heart disease, etc. Some people have a greater predisposition to being bipolar and others towards depression. We all have to make our way in life with the cards that we've been dealt. It doesn't have to be an easy path. That however doesn't mean that if we are born particularly unlucky that we should just starve. If someone is suffering from severe schizophrenia, then I support society offering a helping hand because this person is severely handicapped in that they can't really function in reality. Not liking to be in public and around groups of people may make for unpleasant experiences when one is forced every morning to get up and go to work and to be around people and feel uncomfortable all day long, but society shouldn't be paying people welfare just so they can avoid discomfort in their lives. I don't want people to starve if they can't work, I don't really care if they are uncomfortable while working.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

liblady said:
couldn't find them there...although i think the average household that receives welfare has 2.8 people. small, in other words.
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That site gave you the number of people per family size. Using the stats, the average household could be determined.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

tessaesque said:
Additionally, most on the system learn very quickly that it pays more to work a low-income job and stay on welfare than it does to seek a higher paying job and lose benefits. So they work low-skill, low-pay positions so that they meet qualifications without losing benefits.
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Why shouldn't people try to get healthcare, especially if they have children, any way they can? If you can get Medicaid for your children working for $9/hr or take a job for say $12/hr with no benefits or health insurance that you have to pay around $10K annually, which would you take? Because that raise of $3/hr is not going to be nearly enough to cover the annual cost of your health insurance.

This is why a NHS would be better than what we have now altogether. Then you don't have to worry about someone giving up a pretty significant pay raise if it means they would lose something like healthcare coverage for their kids.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

roguenuke said:
Why shouldn't people try to get healthcare, especially if they have children, any way they can? If you can get Medicaid for your children working for $9/hr or take a job for say $12/hr with no benefits or health insurance that you have to pay around $10K annually, which would you take? Because that raise of $3/hr is not going to be nearly enough to cover the annual cost of your health insurance.

This is why a NHS would be better than what we have now altogether. Then you don't have to worry about someone giving up a pretty significant pay raise if it means they would lose something like healthcare coverage for their kids.
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Government run healthcare isn't free. You'll pay as much in taxes for "free" healthcare as you will for private insurance. I'd rather we focus on encourage self-growth and getting them out of that low-skill rut, so that they can find a job w/decent benefits that will allow for self-sufficience.

The solution does not have to be more government.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

tessaesque said:
You can't really prove it happens, but it does. No woman is going to say, "Yes, officer, I had the two little ones because I needed those benefits". I know two women in Michigan who intentionally had babies to prolong their benefits, so I've seen it happen. Does that mean every mom does it? No. Is it an argument for revising the system? Perhaps. More children means more difficulty in finding and keeping work. Part of decentivizing welfare means we should encourage decreased family size until such time as the parents are self-sufficient. I loathe to mention it, but free birth control (not the pill, more likely Mirena, since it lasts 5 years and requires little upkeep) is definitely something that needs to be put on the table.
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While I would be inclined to agree, I can tell you that such a program must needs be purely voluntary. I have spoken about such a plan with a number of people and I consistently get an almost violently negative reaction when putting it to parents who did not intend to have their kids when they had them. Go figure.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Just1Voice said:
While I would be inclined to agree, I can tell you that such a program must needs be purely voluntary. I have spoken about such a plan with a number of people and I consistently get an almost violently negative reaction when putting it to parents who did not intend to have their kids when they had them. Go figure.
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Here's the "voluntary" aspect: You either accept the birth control or accept that any further children will result in social-services involvement and no increase in benefits.
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

RiverDad said:
Incapacitating mental disorders are a disability but things like anxiety disorder or wanting to be a hermit, I don't consider to be disabilities worthy of public support.

We all have baggage of some sort that we carry around. This is why I actually favor insurance companies doing genetic screening. There is no perfect genome. We all have to put up with something. Someone has a greater predisposition to breast cancer, someone else has a greater predisposition towards heart disease, etc. Some people have a greater predisposition to being bipolar and others towards depression. We all have to make our way in life with the cards that we've been dealt. It doesn't have to be an easy path. That however doesn't mean that if we are born particularly unlucky that we should just starve. If someone is suffering from severe schizophrenia, then I support society offering a helping hand because this person is severely handicapped in that they can't really function in reality. Not liking to be in public and around groups of people may make for unpleasant experiences when one is forced every morning to get up and go to work and to be around people and feel uncomfortable all day long, but society shouldn't be paying people welfare just so they can avoid discomfort in their lives. I don't want people to starve if they can't work, I don't really care if they are uncomfortable while working.
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There is a condition called "learned helplessness" which I guess quite a few people suffer. It's not debilitating in a physical sense, nor does it leave one intellectually compromised, but those who suffer from it often end up in a bad way because at some point due to environmental circumstances that were beyond their control (usually in infancy or very early childhood) their brains were wired to make them reticent to take any action that might benefit them. It can be overcome, but often it takes years of therapy, which is costly in its own right. So what do you do with such people? Let them rot, or see to it they get what they need in order to be able to live as a productive part of society again?
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

RiverDad said:
Incapacitating mental disorders are a disability but things like anxiety disorder or wanting to be a hermit, I don't consider to be disabilities worthy of public support.
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O.K .. I definitely believe that everyone has some level (at least some degree above zero) of a disorder .. technically all disorders that are diagnosed should only be diagnosed if they are severe enough to significantly interfere with daily functioning .. so I believe truly valid disorders (everything except mild versions of disorder such as Adjustment Disorder) signify a disability; however, a good amount of individuals with disabilities can contribute to society in some sort of fashion

RiverDad said:
We all have baggage of some sort that we carry around. This is why I actually favor insurance companies doing genetic screening. There is no perfect genome.
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Seriously? I totally disagree; insurance companies are supposed to make enough money off people with no or fewer disorders in order to make up for losses accrued via highly disordered individuals

RiverDad said:
We all have to put up with something. Someone has a greater predisposition to breast cancer, someone else has a greater predisposition towards heart disease, etc. Some people have a greater predisposition to being bipolar and others towards depression. We all have to make our way in life with the cards that we've been dealt. It doesn't have to be an easy path. That however doesn't mean that if we are born particularly unlucky that we should just starve. If someone is suffering from severe schizophrenia, then I support society offering a helping hand because this person is severely handicapped in that they can't really function in reality.
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Yeah, I agree

RiverDad said:
Not liking to be in public and around groups of people may make for unpleasant experiences when one is forced every morning to get up and go to work and to be around people and feel uncomfortable all day long, but society shouldn't be paying people welfare just so they can avoid discomfort in their lives. I don't want people to starve if they can't work, I don't really care if they are uncomfortable while working.
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Good point - I do support therapies that help people have less suffering though
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

tessaesque said:
Just a point of record: In Texas, AC isn't a luxury. It's a necessity. The heat here can be (and is) deadly.
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Migrate for the summer?
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Just1Voice said:
There is a condition called "learned helplessness" which I guess quite a few people suffer. It's not debilitating in a physical sense, nor does it leave one intellectually compromised, but those who suffer from it often end up in a bad way because at some point due to environmental circumstances that were beyond their control (usually in infancy or very early childhood) their brains were wired to make them reticent to take any action that might benefit them. It can be overcome, but often it takes years of therapy, which is costly in its own right. So what do you do with such people? Let them rot, or see to it they get what they need in order to be able to live as a productive part of society again?
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My opinion is that we should see to it that they get the support they need
 
Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Just1Voice said:
There is a condition called "learned helplessness" which I guess quite a few people suffer. It's not debilitating in a physical sense, nor does it leave one intellectually compromised, but those who suffer from it often end up in a bad way because at some point due to environmental circumstances that were beyond their control (usually in infancy or very early childhood) their brains were wired to make them reticent to take any action that might benefit them. It can be overcome, but often it takes years of therapy, which is costly in its own right. So what do you do with such people? Let them rot, or see to it they get what they need in order to be able to live as a productive part of society again?
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Prevention is key. I think college should include child development classes.
 
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