Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

One of the big problems people have sited with our current welfare system is that it currently does not provide and incentive for people to get off welfare. How could a welfare system be created so that recipients would be motivated to get off welfare?

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:

One of the big problems people have sited with our current welfare system is that it currently does not provide and incentive for people to get off welfare. How could a welfare system be created so that recipients would be motivated to get off welfare?

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Thats a tough question...but how about a job service another words your on welfare and if they offer you a job and you refuse...no more welfare...I think that would be fair. You shouldnt be getting public assistance as a guarantee its to help you survive till you can get on your feet...if you turn down a job then its on you

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

lpast said:

Thats a tough question...but how about a job service another words your on welfare and if they offer you a job and you refuse...no more welfare...I think that would be fair. You shouldnt be getting public assistance as a guarantee its to help you survive till you can get on your feet...if you turn down a job then its on you

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I agree, even if people are disabled, whatever they are able to do, they should do - everyone should contribute

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Receiving welfare should include mandatory work or participation in a 2-year certification program for a field experiencing growth or high job demand. Upon completion of said program you will have access to an additional 6 months of payments while you seek a job in that field. At the end of that additional 6 months all benefits are discontinued.

Welfare recipients should also be mandated to take child development and intro to education classes as well as financial planning and money management classes.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

tessaesque said:

Receiving welfare should include mandatory work or participation in a 2-year certification program for a field experiencing growth or high job demand. Upon completion of said program you will have access to an additional 6 months of payments while you seek a job in that field. At the end of that additional 6 months all benefits are discontinued.

Welfare recipients should also be mandated to take child development and intro to education classes as well as financial planning and money management classes.

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This sound reasonable to me (of course educational course may need to be adjusted to meet the recipients disability level, i.e. physical, mental and intellectual disability levels)

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:

This sound reasonable to me (of course educational course may need to be adjusted to meet the recipients disability level, i.e. physical, mental and intellectual disability levels)

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There are a lot of existing transition centers for those with disabilities coming out of HS and moving into the work force. Perhaps those centers can act as consultants or be expanded upon to provide more detailed services.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for its own existence. - Ronald Reagan

Anyway, it just needs to be disincentivized. The truth is that people can live quite well off the dole. I've seen people on all sorts of government assistance with their own place, own car, many of what can be listed as luxuries (air conditioning, computers, gaming consoles, etc.). That has to stop. We need to create the illusion - and make it real - that welfare recipients have a life barely above homelessness. Sardine can for a place, absolutely NO creature comforts, eating cold beans from a can. When you can have generally the same lifestyle as someone who works 40 hours a week without doing a thing, you'd be a fool to trade that in.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Gipper said:

Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for its own existence. - Ronald Reagan

Anyway, it just needs to be disincentivized. The truth is that people can live quite well off the dole. I've seen people on all sorts of government assistance with their own place, own car, many of what can be listed as luxuries (air conditioning, computers, gaming consoles, etc.). That has to stop. We need to create the illusion - and make it real - that welfare recipients have a life barely above homelessness. Sardine can for a place, absolutely NO creature comforts, eating cold beans from a can. When you can have generally the same lifestyle as someone who works 40 hours a week without doing a thing, you'd be a fool to trade that in.

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Just a point of record: In Texas, AC isn't a luxury. It's a necessity. The heat here can be (and is) deadly.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Gipper said:

Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for its own existence. - Ronald Reagan

Anyway, it just needs to be disincentivized. The truth is that people can live quite well off the dole. I've seen people on all sorts of government assistance with their own place, own car, many of what can be listed as luxuries (air conditioning, computers, gaming consoles, etc.). That has to stop. We need to create the illusion - and make it real - that welfare recipients have a life barely above homelessness. Sardine can for a place, absolutely NO creature comforts, eating cold beans from a can. When you can have generally the same lifestyle as someone who works 40 hours a week without doing a thing, you'd be a fool to trade that in.

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Do you apply this to those with genuine disabilities? What should their standard of living be?

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

If work is available, make it a requirement to supplement welfare. In a sense make it workfare. Eliminate the excuse" If I get a job they will stop my checks." Obviously this would not apply to everyone, but it would provide some motivation.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Blue Dog said:

If work is available, make it a requirement to supplement welfare. In a sense make it workfare. Eliminate the excuse" If I get a job they will stop my checks." Obviously this would not apply to everyone, but it would provide some motivation.

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I couldn't agree with you more and if I am correct, I believe quite a few welfare programs require recipients to either work a certain amount of hours per week or show that they are trying to get work or if they cannot find work, they must volunteer .. if this isn't the case, I believe it should be.

Wow, we agree on quite a bit of things, yet so many people have called me an extreme liberal/leftist (according to the political compass I am considered to be a Libertarian Leftist - anything but "extreme" and according to other political surveys I am considered a centrist) .. interesting how people can be so inaccurate with their accusations and or make exaggerations simply for argument's sake

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

It should be noted: part of the reason so little incentive exists for welfare recipients to seek employment is that many of them are under-educated (high school drop-outs, or little-to-no college) with few marketable skills. The jobs they find are usually low paying, with no benefits, so there's more money to be had staying on welfare.

That's why I think a training program that disregards education level and focuses instead on latent ability would be a better option than just allowing for the status quo. And because many on welfare have young children, I see no reason why mandatory child development/education courses shouldn't be included.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

tessaesque said:

It should be noted: part of the reason so little incentive exists for welfare recipients to seek employment is that many of them are under-educated (high school drop-outs, or little-to-no college) with few marketable skills. The jobs they find are usually low paying, with no benefits, so there's more money to be had staying on welfare.

That's why I think a training program that disregards education level and focuses instead on latent ability would be a better option than just allowing for the status quo. And because many on welfare have young children, I see no reason why mandatory child development/education courses shouldn't be included.

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This sounds quite reasonable as well. I definitely agree with this sentiment. There appears to be quite a bit of agreement on this topic and I am wondering why a good system has not yet been created and why people find so much to argue over regarding welfare?

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:

This sounds quite reasonable as well. I definitely agree with this sentiment. There appears to be quite a bit of agreement on this topic and I am wondering why a good system has not yet been created and why people find so much to argue over regarding welfare?

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It would require that people admit that the program doesn't work as it is. I can't tell you how many times I've read or heard somebody say that there's nothing wrong with welfare and the system isn't easy to take advantage of. This program is 30+ years old (or parts of it are), and to admit we've spent billions (or even trillions) to fund a program that is highly inefficient and largely abused....well, it wouldn't be pretty, right?

And, again, in a work-to-play system we'd see a short-term increase in unemployment when contractors lose out on labor bids to welfare recipients mandated to work as a term of receiving their monthly check. In an economy like this, the last thing either party wants on their heads is lost jobs.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

tess said:

Just a point of record: In Texas, AC isn't a luxury. It's a necessity. The heat here can be (and is) deadly.

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I live in southern Alabama. I've seen southern heat, and down here high humidity as well. Fans can work in a pinch. Maybe a sauna for a house can incentivize.

MusicAdventurer said:

Do you apply this to those with genuine disabilities? What should their standard of living be?

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Whatever their family can provide. Barring that, a humble existence with others of his/her kind in an assisted living home.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

tessaesque said:

It would require that people admit that the program doesn't work as it is. I can't tell you how many times I've read or heard somebody say that there's nothing wrong with welfare and the system isn't easy to take advantage of. This program is 30+ years old (or parts of it are), and to admit we've spent billions (or even trillions) to fund a program that is highly inefficient and largely abused....well, it wouldn't be pretty, right?

And, again, in a work-to-play system we'd see a short-term increase in unemployment when contractors lose out on labor bids to welfare recipients mandated to work as a term of receiving their monthly check. In an economy like this, the last thing either party wants on their heads is lost jobs.

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since the welfare reform of the nineties things have certainly changed. welfare IS temporary, and in most cases people are required to work or engage in a work related activity. i think that most people don't really know how wlefare works these days, but blanketly assume everyone on welfare is a deadbeat. many times, women with children are on welfare because of deadbeat dads won't won't pay child support. anyway, here is link to florida TANF:

Florida TANF Program | Florida Temporary Cash Assistance for Needy Families

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

liblady said:

many times, women with children are on welfare because of deadbeat dads won't won't pay child support

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Were these women raped? Assuming no, they bare the ultimate responsibility. Granted, if it's a child, maybe 2, I can possibly oversee things if it was a dissolved marriage.

However, if you have 3, 4, 5 kids and your household income is like 40K, you're being extremely irresponsible. Maybe the state actually would be better off seizing those children.

You need a license to drive, but anyone can breed. What a reckless society we live in.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

liblady said:

since the welfare reform of the nineties things have certainly changed. welfare IS temporary, and in most cases people are required to work or engage in a work related activity. i think that most people don't really know how wlefare works these days, but blanketly assume everyone on welfare is a deadbeat. many times, women with children are on welfare because of deadbeat dads won't won't pay child support. anyway, here is link to florida TANF:

Florida TANF Program | Florida Temporary Cash Assistance for Needy Families

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Unfortunately, along the same lines there are some single mothers on public assistance who purposely get pregnant to increase the size of the benefit.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:

One of the big problems people have sited with our current welfare system is that it currently does not provide and incentive for people to get off welfare. How could a welfare system be created so that recipients would be motivated to get off welfare?

Click to expand...

Interesting topic and one that I have dealt with in the past. In the late 1990s, I came up with an outline of how I would like to see government change and it covered welfare, immigration, taxes, regulations, education, energy, etc. My formatting doesn't work when pasted here. The solid dot is the main idea. The circle is a sub-point. Here is what I wrote for welfare:

• Charity
o Private:
o Individual
o Family
o Churches & Private Charities
o Local government
o State government
o Personal contact and assessment of needs
o Preferably based on agreement of conditions to improve personal ability to provide self-sufficiency
o Based on no agreement of conditions if mental or physical needs or extreme tragedy
 Having charity doled out as money to individuals a continent away from the source of the funding with no assessment of the actual need that will truly aid the person to become self-sufficient. Many people are poor because they abuse drugs or alcohol or drop out of school without getting a diploma. Some just don't like working or don't like being told what to do. The reason for the agreement is to get the person to take the necessary steps to become a productive member of society rather than a drain on resources. Another option available to those who need assistance is education or training as long as a commitment is made to do well at the schooling and perhaps even adding a benefit of having those who receive assistance be available for offering back. Such a program would be an option for a state government.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

liblady said:

since the welfare reform of the nineties things have certainly changed. welfare IS temporary, and in most cases people are required to work or engage in a work related activity. i think that most people don't really know how wlefare works these days, but blanketly assume everyone on welfare is a deadbeat. many times, women with children are on welfare because of deadbeat dads won't won't pay child support. anyway, here is link to florida TANF:

Florida TANF Program | Florida Temporary Cash Assistance for Needy Families

Click to expand...

I've been on welfare (the dependent of an adult recipient). I'm aware of the Texas and Michigan qualifications for welfare. "Temporary" varies from state to state and time constraints can be loosened or eliminated with the introduction of a new baby, the loss of a job, or other "life events". You can be cut off after reaching the time limit only to reapply and begin receiving checks again a few months later. Additionally, most on the system learn very quickly that it pays more to work a low-income job and stay on welfare than it does to seek a higher paying job and lose benefits. So they work low-skill, low-pay positions so that they meet qualifications without losing benefits.

It isn't about being "deadbeats". It's about exploiting the flaws in the system to provide the most advantageous situation possible. The legislators built a system that allows for a lot of exploitation and provides little means of making a non-welfare life very appealing.

Nobody here was even saying that recipients are deadbeats, or dishonest, or abusing the system.

This entire thread was about how to make life after welfare more appealing and more productive than the current system allows.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Blue Dog said:

Unfortunately, along the same lines there are some single mothers on public assistance who purposely get pregnant to increase the size of the benefit.

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I have seen this argument pop up over and over since Reagan was in office, and I still have a lot of trouble with it. You make it sound as if "Welfare Motherhood" has become a career track.

If this is really the case, and it can be proven, then why is there no movement to do something about it aside from getting rid of welfare programs entirely? Why hasn't anyone proposed making such a thing illegal with an automatic penalty including removal of the children into the custody of child protective services and a choice of jail time or voluntary sterilization? It strikes me that if it were possible to prove there were such a creature as a "career track welfare mom," this would already be happening.

It seems far more likely that having no real job-skills and a few kids simply makes a single mother unemployable. Without the money to pay for child care while she seeks out better training and a job that can meet the needs of her family, what choice does she have but to stay at home, on welfare and try to raise the kids?

If there were a way to prove that women were doing this on purpose, and were not simply forced into it for lack of any acceptable alternative, I would be in favor of making this choice a criminal act. It has victims - the children and the state, and both deserve justice.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

tessaesque said:

I've been on welfare (the dependent of an adult recipient). I'm aware of the Texas and Michigan qualifications for welfare. "Temporary" varies from state to state and time constraints can be loosened or eliminated with the introduction of a new baby, the loss of a job, or other "life events". You can be cut off after reaching the time limit only to reapply and begin receiving checks again a few months later. Additionally, most on the system learn very quickly that it pays more to work a low-income job and stay on welfare than it does to seek a higher paying job and lose benefits. So they work low-skill, low-pay positions so that they meet qualifications without losing benefits.

It isn't about being "deadbeats". It's about exploiting the flaws in the system to provide the most advantageous situation possible. The legislators built a system that allows for a lot of exploitation and provides little means of making a non-welfare life very appealing.

Nobody here was even saying that recipients are deadbeats, or dishonest, or abusing the system.

This entire thread was about how to make life after welfare more appealing and more productive than the current system allows.

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you're right, but don't all states have limits? florida has a lifetime limit of 5 years. you have to have a child in the HH to get welfare. you also do have to work, so a person is contributing. i'm not sure what other limits can be placed, logically.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

Off the top of my head.

#1 - Make getting welfare a miserable experience. The only purpose here is to make getting a job a more attractive alternative.
#2 - Make sure that people won't starve and that they have a roof over their head. This doesn't mean that they get to continue living in their own homes and eating as they please. If people want welfare to help support them then make them move into a barracks and have designated meal times. See point #1.
#3 - When someone is given welfare they sign over to a public trustee all of their assets. Following the rules laid down by society, the trustee starts liquidating some of the assets in order to minimize the cost of welfare to the public. See point #1.

Now on the proactive side.

A. - Offer employers a bonus to hire welfare people. Pay the bonus for a year. This gives the welfare person time to show good work habits that other employers will value. It gives them the ability to earn a recommendation from their boss. It gives them time to learn life habits associated with working for a living.
B. - Give some type of bonus to the welfare recipient if they manage to stay on their job for a year.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

MusicAdventurer said:

One of the big problems people have sited with our current welfare system is that it currently does not provide and incentive for people to get off welfare. How could a welfare system be created so that recipients would be motivated to get off welfare?

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I do not think it is possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self sufficient. You can make a welfare system that eases and helps people into being self sufficient. Like instead of completely cutting someone off when they get a job they only get cut off a little, providing benefits only to those who move to where the jobs are, free or reduce priced daycare for those actually going out to get a job or those working, reduce or free trade school for jobs that are in high demand.

If someone is on welfare then they should not get sodas,snack cakes, energy drinks, Filet minion or some other expensive cut of meat, name brand food, prepackaged dinners and deserts,ice cream, and other expensive and luxurious food.If someone on food stamps wants icecream its called buy some cream,sugar, some ziplock bags, rock salt and some ice made their freezer.If they want cake its called go the library computer and find a recipe and buy some flour, powdered cocoa, eggs and what else is needed to buy a cake assuming its generic brand products.

Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

LesGovt said:

Interesting topic and one that I have dealt with in the past. In the late 1990s, I came up with an outline of how I would like to see government change and it covered welfare, immigration, taxes, regulations, education, energy, etc. My formatting doesn't work when pasted here. The solid dot is the main idea. The circle is a sub-point. Here is what I wrote for welfare:

• Charity
o Private:
o Individual
o Family
o Churches & Private Charities
o Local government
o State government
o Personal contact and assessment of needs
o Preferably based on agreement of conditions to improve personal ability to provide self-sufficiency
o Based on no agreement of conditions if mental or physical needs or extreme tragedy
 Having charity doled out as money to individuals a continent away from the source of the funding with no assessment of the actual need that will truly aid the person to become self-sufficient. Many people are poor because they abuse drugs or alcohol or drop out of school without getting a diploma. Some just don't like working or don't like being told what to do. The reason for the agreement is to get the person to take the necessary steps to become a productive member of society rather than a drain on resources. Another option available to those who need assistance is education or training as long as a commitment is made to do well at the schooling and perhaps even adding a benefit of having those who receive assistance be available for offering back. Such a program would be an option for a state government.

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I am in agreement with essentially everything that you have proposed. However I do have a few questions regarding a few of your comments/statements (see below):

LesGovt said:

Many people are poor because they abuse drugs or alcohol or drop out of school without getting a diploma.

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I am wondering what you consider the course of action for such people should be? I am also wondering if you are aware of current scientific evidence that supports the theory that drug and alcohol (substance) abuse and dependence are considered mental health issues [the current issue of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) includes the various]. Do you believe that mental health disorders exist and do you believe that substance abuse and dependence disorders exist? How do you think the welfare system should deal with recipients who have been diagnosed with such disorders?

LesGovt said:

Some just don't like working or don't like being told what to do.

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I am assuming that you are proposing that if they don't like to work or be told what to do, they either have work despite these dislikes and if they do not work, they should not receive welfare. Is this correct? If so, I agree with you.