View Poll Results: What would a welfare that rewards self-sufficiency look like? Select all that apply:

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  • 1.) It would not allow recipients more than is needed to survive

    7 46.67%
  • 2.) The reward for getting off welfare would be: recipients could afford more than necessities

    3 20.00%
  • 3.) programs would be temporary (recipients can only be on welfare for a certain period)

    11 73.33%
  • 4.) It would grant small monetary payouts for every step forward

    6 40.00%
  • 5.) Recipients would experience a sufficiently higher standard of living after getting off welfare

    6 40.00%
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Thread: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

  1. #81
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    WIC is the tip of the iceberg. It's not WIC that is unsustainable, it's the situation of people having kids when they can't afford to have kids. Read that snippet again - "49 percent of all babies born in the U.S. are born to families receiving food supplements " - that's saying that half of all babies born are born to families that are ALREADY receiving aid. If you can't afford to feed your family why on earth are you having more kids?
    I simply don't believe those numbers. Additionally, they claim that poverty level for a family of four is $41,348. However, the federal standards is about half of that.
    2009 Federal Poverty Guidelines

    There is something funky going on with that article.

  2. #82
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    How do you propose to stop poor people from having children? Oh I agree that from pragmatic viewpoint it would be better for everyone if the birthrate among the poor was lower, but I am realistic enough to know that our likelihood of effecting meaningful change on that front doesn't lie in conservative policies like doing away with welfare. You won't stop the babies from coming, you will only increase the number of them that are not merely poor, but poverty stricken.
    At some point a solution has to be developed no matter how squeamish we are at the prospect of solving this problem. The solution is obvious to all, but no one wants to broach it. The solution is to do what many professional single woman are doing voluntarily - egg banking. For men it would be sperm banking.

    If a family with children is receiving state aid we need to guarantee that they won't have more children who will then just add to the state's welfare burden. Snip, snip. When people get themselves out of the hole that they were in, are no longer on welfare, and want to expand their family, then they call up the egg or sperm bank and set about having another kid.

    Yes, it's an imposition on their reproductive freedom, but their call on state resources is a counterbalancing imposition on everyone else's freedom.

    Consider this: Those "other peoples children" are potentially the parents or grandparents of your own descendants as well. You have no control over who your children choose to procreate with, nor your grandchildren and so on down the line. Given the distribution of capital in this country, it is more likely than not that within two generations your own grandchildren will be among those poor that you currently despise so much, and it will be due to people that think the way you do.
    Boo-hoo. Am I supposed to feel sad or something? I'm immune to liberal guilt trips, but keep trying, the comedy effect is pretty funny.

  3. #83
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Exactly, the program pales in comparison to Food Stamps who's spending is $73 billion a year (see link for source):

    U.S. Spending On Food Stamps At All-Time High, Sparking Debate Over Welfare | FoxNews.com

    Again .. I'm not against such welfare programs .. I am just against the way the system encourages those on welfare to stay on it
    Still $73 billion is not all that much given the worst economic climate since the Great Depression. Additionally, the Heritage Foundation claims that "You certainly expect the food stamp program to go up during a recession, that's not a bad thing," said Robert Rector, a poverty expert at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "What we should be concerned about is even before the recession the food stamp program was increasing dramatically, because the government was reaching out to bring people into the program and then make them dependent."

    The problem with this statement is that as the economy grew during the Bush years, only a few benefited. In fact, most productivity gains of the last four decades have gone to the uber rich. As the economic pie gets bigger, not everyone is better off. It is sad to live in a country where median HH income has remained stagnant since the early 60's.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    The problem with this statement is that as the economy grew during the Bush years, only a few benefited. In fact, most productivity gains of the last four decades have gone to the uber rich. As the economic pie gets bigger, not everyone is better off. It is sad to live in a country where median HH income has remained stagnant since the early 60's.
    What do you expect when we import poverty via immigration? Adding low skilled labor to the labor force actively depresses wages for the lowest skilled people and prevents them from benefiting by the increased wages which result in period of labor scarcity. Secondly, gains in household income that are occurring are being occluded by the addition of poor people - it's like having a bucket that is filling up with water while someone directly across from you is scooping the water out. Your water level is not rising even though the hose is filling the bucket.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    How do you propose to stop poor people from having children? Oh I agree that from pragmatic viewpoint it would be better for everyone if the birthrate among the poor was lower, but I am realistic enough to know that our likelihood of effecting meaningful change on that front doesn't lie in conservative policies like doing away with welfare. You won't stop the babies from coming, you will only increase the number of them that are not merely poor, but poverty stricken.

    Consider this: Those "other peoples children" are potentially the parents or grandparents of your own descendants as well. You have no control over who your children choose to procreate with, nor your grandchildren and so on down the line. Given the distribution of capital in this country, it is more likely than not that within two generations your own grandchildren will be among those poor that you currently despise so much, and it will be due to people that think the way you do.

    If you want to effect meaningful change that will do your descendants any good, you need to address the reasons people are poor or poverty stricken.

    Hint: It isn't because they are lazy and have welfare to rely on.
    Exactly .. what is it the current generation is the first to make, on average, less than their parents, i.e. the trend used to be an average of upward mobility and for the first time it is downward

    The problem of course is related to population levels and the increasing level of money trickling upward (no trickle down economics do not work) as is predicted when corporations and the wealthy are not kept in check .. things would trickle up even faster if there were a flat tax .. as of now many middle class pay around the same percentage as the wealthy because there are more tax loopholes that are easier for the wealthy to exploit, therefore eliminating the intended effect of progressive taxation - progressive taxation is meant to keep the money from trickling upward, but progressive taxation is void when tax loopholes effectively remove that progressive tax system

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    At some point a solution has to be developed no matter how squeamish we are at the prospect of solving this problem. The solution is obvious to all, but no one wants to broach it. The solution is to do what many professional single woman are doing voluntarily - egg banking. For men it would be sperm banking.

    If a family with children is receiving state aid we need to guarantee that they won't have more children who will then just add to the state's welfare burden. Snip, snip. When people get themselves out of the hole that they were in, are no longer on welfare, and want to expand their family, then they call up the egg or sperm bank and set about having another kid.

    Yes, it's an imposition on their reproductive freedom, but their call on state resources is a counterbalancing imposition on everyone else's freedom.
    Sure, the poor are going to agree to this? The religious right are going to agree to it? You are fighting a losing battle on two fronts. Good luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Boo-hoo. Am I supposed to feel sad or something? I'm immune to liberal guilt trips, but keep trying, the comedy effect is pretty funny.
    I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you find it funny. Regardless of what your willful myopia allows you to perceive, it is no less true. I don't expect any kind of empathetic reaction from you, no. You have proven already that you aren't capable of caring about anyone beyond your limited little world. I do feel sorry for your descendants though. How will they be able to bear the shame of having you in their family tree, only time can tell.

  7. #87
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    Still $73 billion is not all that much given the worst economic climate since the Great Depression. Additionally, the Heritage Foundation claims that "You certainly expect the food stamp program to go up during a recession, that's not a bad thing," said Robert Rector, a poverty expert at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "What we should be concerned about is even before the recession the food stamp program was increasing dramatically, because the government was reaching out to bring people into the program and then make them dependent."

    The problem with this statement is that as the economy grew during the Bush years, only a few benefited. In fact, most productivity gains of the last four decades have gone to the uber rich. As the economic pie gets bigger, not everyone is better off. It is sad to live in a country where median HH income has remained stagnant since the early 60's.
    I couldn't agree more with you .. was simply pointing out that RiverDad's citation of Jean Daniel's comments regarding how "expensive" the WIC program was completely off base and likely related to some other underhanded and ill-informed agenda

    It is very sad that the wealthy (those making $250k and up) who support misnomers like "trickle down economics" will eventually find themselves in the poorhouse as the uber-wealthy will only get richer if either their taxes are not increased or their tax loopholes are not closed. All the wealthy who think they are safe, are not if they aren't in the top few wealth percentiles
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 08-26-11 at 03:39 AM.

  8. #88
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I agree, even if people are disabled, whatever they are able to do, they should do - everyone should contribute
    Say What? You think disabled folks should have to work even though they cannot?
    ~Following My Own Flow~

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for its own existence. - Ronald Reagan

    Anyway, it just needs to be disincentivized. The truth is that people can live quite well off the dole. I've seen people on all sorts of government assistance with their own place, own car, many of what can be listed as luxuries (air conditioning, computers, gaming consoles, etc.). That has to stop. We need to create the illusion - and make it real - that welfare recipients have a life barely above homelessness. Sardine can for a place, absolutely NO creature comforts, eating cold beans from a can. When you can have generally the same lifestyle as someone who works 40 hours a week without doing a thing, you'd be a fool to trade that in.
    So in other words you wish to treat these people as 2nd class citizens. Your mind set is a disgust
    ~Following My Own Flow~

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Say What? You think disabled folks should have to work even though they cannot?
    No, he thinks that disabled folks should do what they are capable of doing. I am ambivalent about the term "differently-abled" but in this case, it applies.

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