View Poll Results: What would a welfare that rewards self-sufficiency look like? Select all that apply:

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  • 1.) It would not allow recipients more than is needed to survive

    7 46.67%
  • 2.) The reward for getting off welfare would be: recipients could afford more than necessities

    3 20.00%
  • 3.) programs would be temporary (recipients can only be on welfare for a certain period)

    11 73.33%
  • 4.) It would grant small monetary payouts for every step forward

    6 40.00%
  • 5.) Recipients would experience a sufficiently higher standard of living after getting off welfare

    6 40.00%
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Thread: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

  1. #61
    Advisor Just1Voice's Avatar
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I talk politics a lot, so I often hear "you should just run for office". My consistent response is, "I'd never be elected". My stances are rarely built for mass-approval, unfortunately. While there may be some pragmatic value to them, it's all about appealing to a wide base, and I can't do that.
    Until we can emphasize teaching critical thinking skills in school, that is going to remain a problem. It has been my contention that a lot of these kinds of problems could be entirely overcome in a few short generations if we simply taught kids how to really think for themselves.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    The VA system where poor cleanliness and lack of oversight led to veterans being exposed to AIDS in multiple locations at varying times?

    Before we turn anything over to the government we need to make damn sure it's running as best it can. A lot can be done to change health care before we give it to the least efficient management system in the country.
    It happened in one VA hospital in St. Louis, and one in Florida.

    However, civilian hospitals have this happen too.

    http://neworleanscitybusiness.com/bl...itis-exposure/
    WSVN-TV - Hospital reviewing patient exposure to Hepatitis and HIV
    Why HIV exposure at hospital may have happened – The Chart - CNN.com Blogs

    Both VA and civilian hospitals have this stuff happen.
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    The VA system where poor cleanliness and lack of oversight led to veterans being exposed to AIDS in multiple locations at varying times?

    Before we turn anything over to the government we need to make damn sure it's running as best it can. A lot can be done to change health care before we give it to the least efficient management system in the country.
    In my opinion, this is the result of corruption, and if we could just root that out, things would improve dramatically. The real problem is that in so many cases the corruption has become a part of the system, and when you root out just one part of it, without addressing the rest as well, the whole things breaks down. It's a catch 22, and leaves those those who care the most frustrated and eventually either they succumb to the corruption or the struggle against it just burns them out entirely.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Incapacitating mental disorders are a disability but things like anxiety disorder or wanting to be a hermit, I don't consider to be disabilities worthy of public support.

    *snip*

    Not liking to be in public and around groups of people may make for unpleasant experiences when one is forced every morning to get up and go to work and to be around people and feel uncomfortable all day long, but society shouldn't be paying people welfare just so they can avoid discomfort in their lives. I don't want people to starve if they can't work, I don't really care if they are uncomfortable while working.
    I dunno, man. I don't think you get it.

    I had a brief run-in with anxiety in the month that followed me being mugged, fresh on the road and green as hell. Scary, and bad timing. I had a couple panic attacks. I felt like I was going to die. Literally die. I couldn't breathe and it felt like my heart was going to explode. People go to the ER with panic attacks all the time because they think they're having a heart attack. And some of them have events like that frequently - several times a day, if they're in a triggering situation.

    I'm lucky it was temporary for me (and lucky I knew what it was, from having taken a couple psych classes and from seeing someone have a panic attack before). Some people live with that all the time. That is much worse than being "uncomfortable," or "just wanting to be a hermit," and it's not something you can just get over. It's crippling. If that had been happening to me several times a day, I would say that I would definitely be unable to work.

    That'll teach you real quick not to judge other people's situations and that it's not up to you whether they're "sick enough" or sick in a way that makes sense to you. It is true that experiencing minor or temporary mental health disturbances like anxiety and depression is pretty common and for most people something you can work through, but people who live with this stuff chronically and severely... they definitely deserve a bit of a break. I never want to feel anything like that again as long as I live. That was years ago, but I still remember that it absolutely sucked.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 08-26-11 at 01:42 AM.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    That'll teach you real quick not to judge other people's situations and that it's not up to you whether they're "sick enough" or sick in a way that makes sense to you.
    OK, then, let's just cancel all welfare, for there is no way that I'm supporting a system which gives interested parties carte blanche on my check book. Let everyone figure out how to survive on their own. I laid down my terms and conditions for supporting a welfare system with my taxes. Screw it. You don't want my participation, just my money, well, you can do without both.

    I'll prepare for disastrous outcomes that may befall me and my family and you do the same for you and yours, and as they say, fences make for good neighbors.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    OK, then, let's just cancel all welfare, for there is no way that I'm supporting a system which gives interested parties carte blanche on my check book. Let everyone figure out how to survive on their own. I laid down my terms and conditions for supporting a welfare system with my taxes. Screw it. You don't want my participation, just my money, well, you can do without both.

    I'll prepare for disastrous outcomes that may befall me and my family and you do the same for you and yours, and as they say, fences make for good neighbors.
    I'm just saying you can't lay down a blanket like that. Was I unable to work due to my experiences? No. I experienced a temporary disturbance of my mental health following a traumatic event. That is likely to happen to most people at some point in their lives. It is not necessarily incapacitating, and if it is, it's only for a very short time - a time you could probably expect an understanding employer to give you.

    What I'm saying is that it gave me an idea of what people who have anxiety more severely and more chronically might be going through, and for you to discount anxiety as ever being incapacitating is wrong. Anxiety can be mild or severe, temporary or chronic, like most everything else. The form and severity of the disorder is important in evaluating a person's ability to work.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 08-26-11 at 01:54 AM.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    It's actually simple. Welfare should last a very short time and have strict requirements. You *MUST* get an education and/or job training while on welfare. You *MUST* have no more children while in welfare. After 2-3 years maximum, it runs out, no matter what and you are not eligible again for at least 5 years. Make it count or else.
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    I'm just saying you can't lay down a blanket like that. Was I unable to work due to my experiences? No. I experienced a temporary disturbance of my mental health following a traumatic event. That is likely to happen to most people at some point in their lives. It it not necessarily incapacitating, and if it is, it's only for a very short time - a time you could probably expect an understanding employer to give you.

    What I'm saying is that it gave me an idea of what people who have anxiety more severely and more chronically might be going through, and for you to discount anxiety as ever being incapacitating is wrong. Anxiety can be mild or severe, temporary or chronic, like most everything else. The form and severity of the disorder is important in evaluating a person's ability to work.
    You're a liberal because you care about everyone. I'm a conservative because I care about efficiency. Lines have to be drawn somewhere. Every bleeding heart story doesn't deserve full-on support from society. If mental health professionals declare that someone goes into a screaming hysterical fit every time they leave the security of their house, then I put that in the same category as having broken with reality - they simply can't function in society and need a helping hand. That's an extreme and easy case. Other people though, most of us actually, have to endure hardship - people get divorced, people get cheated, people get threatened, people get beaten, people get raped, etc this stuff goes on all the time.

    The role of the state is not to be everyone's mommy. The state can provide the barest of care for the very worst off. Any shortfalls that develop can be funded by good-hearted citizens like yourself. Private charity is awesome in that it allows caring people to actually demonstrate that they are caring by sacrificing some of their own wellbeing by donating to organizations who help others. That's a far more satisfying demonstration of being a caring person than the preferred alternative of many, which is that agitating for taxes to be raised on others so that the proceeds can be spent on the programs one thinks need more funding. Picking someone else's pocket doesn't demonstrate caring.

    Minimal welfare and enhanced private charity is the direction I prefer.
    Last edited by RiverDad; 08-26-11 at 02:04 AM.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad
    Picking someone else's pocket doesn't demonstrate caring.
    Now if liberals would realize this.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I'll admit. I have never been on welfare and I don't know how it works. I used to think that being on food stamps meant you were on welfare, but somebody on food stamps told me that isn't true. You can work, be low income, but still qualify for food stamps. I don't know the qualifications or disqualifications, and I doubt most people do. I think welfare is just a scapegoat, and I will readily admit that I don't know how efficient and effective it is or is not. I don't know how easily abused it is, how often etc.
    I have worked with clients and counseled people who were/are on welfare; I also studied social work (in addition to counseling, psychology, sociology and computer tech) in college, so I know the local welfare system fairly well .. as far as I know welfare includes:

    All the following services are provided as a percentage of income below poverty level - the more you make the less assistance you get and then once you are above the poverty level the assistance is cut-off - I believe all require that you are working or volunteering until you work - also there are waiting lists for certain assistance types (not sure exactly which ones though):

    Temporary cash assistance: a small amount of cash supplement - program based on need basis i believe and that is temporary (not sure how long) and requires that recipients do education, if they don't have a GED I believe they have to do adult classes, then participate in approved trainings for jobs, or enroll in a degree based system that will likely ensure them a better job

    Housing assistance (there are different types, some for those with disabilities, some for the elderly, some for people in poverty) - I believe the one for people in poverty requires all the people in the household to be working or if they can't find work, volunteering until they can - assistance is figured by charging rent that is like 30% of your monthly income - via voucher or in association with certain housing foundations - I believe there is a government assisted home owners version that is much more expensive, but less so than buying a house outright and people rent to own - very long waiting list

    Cell phone can be provided for those in poverty with a small amount of minutes mainly meant enough minutes for emergencies and work related calls

    Food Stamps - like 14% of income worth of food is provided (increases with family size)

    Healthcare - covers doctors visits (not dental) and medications - there is one for the elderly and one for those in poverty - I believe this takes like a couple months or so to get accepted

    Dental - some cities have dental clinics that offer lowered rates/sliding scale fees for those in poverty

    Heating Assistance - minimum estimated heat cost is calculated then assistance is given via a voucher

    Higher Education Assistance: there's a program call inspire or something that helps pay for books and transportation to college

    Student Loans - government student loans help with tuition and a little bit of living costs depending on family size and one's age (under 25, students get much less assistance) - subsidized and unsubsidized loans - i.e. some loans accrue interest while the student is in school and some do not accrue interest until the individual is out of school - I believe you need to be getting a C or better in all your classes to continue to get student loans

    Social Security - for people with disabilities helps with basic needs in the form of cash (i.e. a check) - I think this is next to impossible to acquire unless you are paralyzed or paralyzed from the waist down, or have been diagnosed with MR before the age of 18 - and I think it could take up to a year or more if you have any other kind of disability

    That is all I can think of off the top of my head - Not sure if there are differences from State to State

    The main problem with these systems is that there is a sudden cut-off of assistance - i.e. assistance abruptly stops at a certain income level - this encourages people to keep lower incomes because they wouldn't be able to afford their bills if they got off the system - it's pretty sick if you ask me - whoever thought the system up either were complete morons or there is some conspiracy to keep people on welfare

    don't quote me on all of those, but that's what I can remember from talking to people and from college
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 08-26-11 at 02:25 AM.

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