View Poll Results: What would a welfare that rewards self-sufficiency look like? Select all that apply:

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  • 1.) It would not allow recipients more than is needed to survive

    7 46.67%
  • 2.) The reward for getting off welfare would be: recipients could afford more than necessities

    3 20.00%
  • 3.) programs would be temporary (recipients can only be on welfare for a certain period)

    11 73.33%
  • 4.) It would grant small monetary payouts for every step forward

    6 40.00%
  • 5.) Recipients would experience a sufficiently higher standard of living after getting off welfare

    6 40.00%
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Thread: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Dog View Post
    Unfortunately, along the same lines there are some single mothers on public assistance who purposely get pregnant to increase the size of the benefit.
    I have seen this argument pop up over and over since Reagan was in office, and I still have a lot of trouble with it. You make it sound as if "Welfare Motherhood" has become a career track.

    If this is really the case, and it can be proven, then why is there no movement to do something about it aside from getting rid of welfare programs entirely? Why hasn't anyone proposed making such a thing illegal with an automatic penalty including removal of the children into the custody of child protective services and a choice of jail time or voluntary sterilization? It strikes me that if it were possible to prove there were such a creature as a "career track welfare mom," this would already be happening.

    It seems far more likely that having no real job-skills and a few kids simply makes a single mother unemployable. Without the money to pay for child care while she seeks out better training and a job that can meet the needs of her family, what choice does she have but to stay at home, on welfare and try to raise the kids?

    If there were a way to prove that women were doing this on purpose, and were not simply forced into it for lack of any acceptable alternative, I would be in favor of making this choice a criminal act. It has victims - the children and the state, and both deserve justice.

  2. #22
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I've been on welfare (the dependent of an adult recipient). I'm aware of the Texas and Michigan qualifications for welfare. "Temporary" varies from state to state and time constraints can be loosened or eliminated with the introduction of a new baby, the loss of a job, or other "life events". You can be cut off after reaching the time limit only to reapply and begin receiving checks again a few months later. Additionally, most on the system learn very quickly that it pays more to work a low-income job and stay on welfare than it does to seek a higher paying job and lose benefits. So they work low-skill, low-pay positions so that they meet qualifications without losing benefits.

    It isn't about being "deadbeats". It's about exploiting the flaws in the system to provide the most advantageous situation possible. The legislators built a system that allows for a lot of exploitation and provides little means of making a non-welfare life very appealing.

    Nobody here was even saying that recipients are deadbeats, or dishonest, or abusing the system.

    This entire thread was about how to make life after welfare more appealing and more productive than the current system allows.
    you're right, but don't all states have limits? florida has a lifetime limit of 5 years. you have to have a child in the HH to get welfare. you also do have to work, so a person is contributing. i'm not sure what other limits can be placed, logically.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  3. #23
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Off the top of my head.

    #1 - Make getting welfare a miserable experience. The only purpose here is to make getting a job a more attractive alternative.
    #2 - Make sure that people won't starve and that they have a roof over their head. This doesn't mean that they get to continue living in their own homes and eating as they please. If people want welfare to help support them then make them move into a barracks and have designated meal times. See point #1.
    #3 - When someone is given welfare they sign over to a public trustee all of their assets. Following the rules laid down by society, the trustee starts liquidating some of the assets in order to minimize the cost of welfare to the public. See point #1.

    Now on the proactive side.

    A. - Offer employers a bonus to hire welfare people. Pay the bonus for a year. This gives the welfare person time to show good work habits that other employers will value. It gives them the ability to earn a recommendation from their boss. It gives them time to learn life habits associated with working for a living.
    B. - Give some type of bonus to the welfare recipient if they manage to stay on their job for a year.

  4. #24
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    One of the big problems people have sited with our current welfare system is that it currently does not provide and incentive for people to get off welfare. How could a welfare system be created so that recipients would be motivated to get off welfare?
    I do not think it is possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self sufficient. You can make a welfare system that eases and helps people into being self sufficient. Like instead of completely cutting someone off when they get a job they only get cut off a little, providing benefits only to those who move to where the jobs are, free or reduce priced daycare for those actually going out to get a job or those working, reduce or free trade school for jobs that are in high demand.

    If someone is on welfare then they should not get sodas,snack cakes, energy drinks, Filet minion or some other expensive cut of meat, name brand food, prepackaged dinners and deserts,ice cream, and other expensive and luxurious food.If someone on food stamps wants icecream its called buy some cream,sugar, some ziplock bags, rock salt and some ice made their freezer.If they want cake its called go the library computer and find a recipe and buy some flour, powdered cocoa, eggs and what else is needed to buy a cake assuming its generic brand products.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 08-25-11 at 06:00 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Interesting topic and one that I have dealt with in the past. In the late 1990s, I came up with an outline of how I would like to see government change and it covered welfare, immigration, taxes, regulations, education, energy, etc. My formatting doesn't work when pasted here. The solid dot is the main idea. The circle is a sub-point. Here is what I wrote for welfare:

    • Charity
    o Private:
    o Individual
    o Family
    o Churches & Private Charities
    o Local government
    o State government
    o Personal contact and assessment of needs
    o Preferably based on agreement of conditions to improve personal ability to provide self-sufficiency
    o Based on no agreement of conditions if mental or physical needs or extreme tragedy
     Having charity doled out as money to individuals a continent away from the source of the funding with no assessment of the actual need that will truly aid the person to become self-sufficient. Many people are poor because they abuse drugs or alcohol or drop out of school without getting a diploma. Some just don't like working or don't like being told what to do. The reason for the agreement is to get the person to take the necessary steps to become a productive member of society rather than a drain on resources. Another option available to those who need assistance is education or training as long as a commitment is made to do well at the schooling and perhaps even adding a benefit of having those who receive assistance be available for offering back. Such a program would be an option for a state government.
    I am in agreement with essentially everything that you have proposed. However I do have a few questions regarding a few of your comments/statements (see below):

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Many people are poor because they abuse drugs or alcohol or drop out of school without getting a diploma.
    I am wondering what you consider the course of action for such people should be? I am also wondering if you are aware of current scientific evidence that supports the theory that drug and alcohol (substance) abuse and dependence are considered mental health issues [the current issue of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) includes the various]. Do you believe that mental health disorders exist and do you believe that substance abuse and dependence disorders exist? How do you think the welfare system should deal with recipients who have been diagnosed with such disorders?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Some just don't like working or don't like being told what to do.
    I am assuming that you are proposing that if they don't like to work or be told what to do, they either have work despite these dislikes and if they do not work, they should not receive welfare. Is this correct? If so, I agree with you.

  6. #26
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Just1Voice View Post
    I have seen this argument pop up over and over since Reagan was in office, and I still have a lot of trouble with it. You make it sound as if "Welfare Motherhood" has become a career track.

    If this is really the case, and it can be proven, then why is there no movement to do something about it aside from getting rid of welfare programs entirely? Why hasn't anyone proposed making such a thing illegal with an automatic penalty including removal of the children into the custody of child protective services and a choice of jail time or voluntary sterilization? It strikes me that if it were possible to prove there were such a creature as a "career track welfare mom," this would already be happening.

    It seems far more likely that having no real job-skills and a few kids simply makes a single mother unemployable. Without the money to pay for child care while she seeks out better training and a job that can meet the needs of her family, what choice does she have but to stay at home, on welfare and try to raise the kids?

    If there were a way to prove that women were doing this on purpose, and were not simply forced into it for lack of any acceptable alternative, I would be in favor of making this choice a criminal act. It has victims - the children and the state, and both deserve justice.
    You can't really prove it happens, but it does. No woman is going to say, "Yes, officer, I had the two little ones because I needed those benefits". I know two women in Michigan who intentionally had babies to prolong their benefits, so I've seen it happen. Does that mean every mom does it? No. Is it an argument for revising the system? Perhaps. More children means more difficulty in finding and keeping work. Part of decentivizing welfare means we should encourage decreased family size until such time as the parents are self-sufficient. I loathe to mention it, but free birth control (not the pill, more likely Mirena, since it lasts 5 years and requires little upkeep) is definitely something that needs to be put on the table.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  7. #27
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Off the top of my head.

    #1 - Make getting welfare a miserable experience. The only purpose here is to make getting a job a more attractive alternative.
    #2 - Make sure that people won't starve and that they have a roof over their head. This doesn't mean that they get to continue living in their own homes and eating as they please. If people want welfare to help support them then make them move into a barracks and have designated meal times. See point #1.
    #3 - When someone is given welfare they sign over to a public trustee all of their assets. Following the rules laid down by society, the trustee starts liquidating some of the assets in order to minimize the cost of welfare to the public. See point #1.

    Now on the proactive side.

    A. - Offer employers a bonus to hire welfare people. Pay the bonus for a year. This gives the welfare person time to show good work habits that other employers will value. It gives them the ability to earn a recommendation from their boss. It gives them time to learn life habits associated with working for a living.
    B. - Give some type of bonus to the welfare recipient if they manage to stay on their job for a year.
    One question ... how do you define "miserable"?

    Also, how "miserable" do you think the system should people's lives be who have disabilities?

  8. #28
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I am in agreement with essentially everything that you have proposed.
    Damn! Don't do this to me!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    However I do have a few questions regarding a few of your comments/statements (see below):
    Oh no. I hope you disagree with my answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I am wondering what you consider the course of action for such people should be? I am also wondering if you are aware of current scientific evidence that supports the theory that drug and alcohol (substance) abuse and dependence are considered mental health issues [the current issue of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) includes the various]. Do you believe that mental health disorders exist and do you believe that substance abuse and dependence disorders exist? How do you think the welfare system should deal with recipients who have been diagnosed with such disorders?
    I don't know whether or not it is a mental disorder. They should be treated one time and then once treated no more treatment or aid; unless, some charity wants to handle it. Actually, I think it best that if they repeat, that we just shoot them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I am assuming that you are proposing that if they don't like to work or be told what to do, they either have work despite these dislikes and if they do not work, they should not receive welfare. Is this correct? If so, I agree with you.
    Make them work and if they don't work, shoot them.

  9. #29
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    you're right, but don't all states have limits? florida has a lifetime limit of 5 years. you have to have a child in the HH to get welfare. you also do have to work, so a person is contributing. i'm not sure what other limits can be placed, logically.
    I think the program should be completely revised. Make job training programs mandatory and provide them at no cost. If the parent refuses to take these course they lose benefits. Force them to learn a marketable skill that will give them the opportunity to earn and provide for themselves better than welfare does. We should make it easier for them to become self-sufficient, not just make it easier for them to survive on a pittance.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  10. #30
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    One question ... how do you define "miserable"?

    Also, how "miserable" do you think the system should people's lives be who have disabilities?
    Disabilities are a different case.

    To the extent that someone is born with a disability, that's life lottery in action and any of us could have been struck, so I don't have a problem with the "winners" helping out those who are physically incapable of working.

    To the extent that a disability arises from living life and just having an accident, we should all be paying into our own insurance schemes to guard against such an event striking us. For kids, the insurance should be paid for by their parents. I've never had my house burn down, ever, but every year I pay insurance to cover me in case I get unlucky.

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