View Poll Results: What would a welfare that rewards self-sufficiency look like? Select all that apply:

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  • 1.) It would not allow recipients more than is needed to survive

    7 46.67%
  • 2.) The reward for getting off welfare would be: recipients could afford more than necessities

    3 20.00%
  • 3.) programs would be temporary (recipients can only be on welfare for a certain period)

    11 73.33%
  • 4.) It would grant small monetary payouts for every step forward

    6 40.00%
  • 5.) Recipients would experience a sufficiently higher standard of living after getting off welfare

    6 40.00%
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Thread: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

  1. #141
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Most college students don't qualify as "poor" until they're 24, at which time they are no longer required to report their parent's income on the FAFSA form. Until then, their parent's income is weighed to determine their financial obligation. Once they reach 24 (which is 2-3 years after most college students graduate), they can make up to 31k per year and still qualify for Pell Grants as the system current exists. That means that currently, many welfare recipients already qualify for PG, but since this money is first-come/first-serve and not allotted based on need, welfare recipients have no better chance of receiving the aid than do non-welfare recipients.

    Further, the program I suggest would not allow welfare recipients to major in anything they wanted to major in. An AAA degree would not qualify under the program. These would be 2-year vocational certification courses in fields with median incomes above X-dollars. Nursing, CAD drafting, medical assisting, respiratory therapy, radiology and sonography...or other similar programs (even a 2-year cert in child care or social services). Many schools require that part of the course work be completed in-field, and a lot of the programs already have relationships within these industries, giving the students access to contacts in the field.

    I'm not sure why you would think that anybody and everybody would take advantage of this, or even that "poor college students" would. This is a program specifically for welfare recipients, and is a mandatory requirement of continued government aid. So you have to apply and receive welfare benefits before you have access, but you can't receive benefits unless you take part in the program.

    Not including books and supplies, you can get a 2-year certification at the local community college here for $2,600 if you live in district (within Dallas County).
    OK, that makes sense. I didn't go to college until I was 38, so I didn't know about the 24 y/o cutoff for parental support.

    Carry on. It sounds like you have a pretty good plan. The one caveat is that these people have to pass the courses. Most of the people we need to help probably can't accomplish that little feat.
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  2. #142
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    The one caveat is that these people have to pass the courses. Most of the people we need to help probably can't accomplish that little feat.
    This is a hugely important point that you've made. There are basically two reasons that people are in poverty. Circumstances and nature. If someone is in poverty because the they're newly arrived in America and don't speak the language well, they wasted away their youth on drugs and now can't get back on the right track even though they have the desire to, then helping hand programs can repair the factors that are keeping them in poverty. Other people though are there because of who they are - they have poor impulse control, they have little future time orientation, they have poor decision making skills, they're not very smart, etc and even if you hold their hand and put them on the right track, as soon as you let go of their hand, they'll fall off the track and be back where they started.

  3. #143
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for its own existence. - Ronald Reagan

    Anyway, it just needs to be disincentivized. The truth is that people can live quite well off the dole. I've seen people on all sorts of government assistance with their own place, own car, many of what can be listed as luxuries (air conditioning, computers, gaming consoles, etc.). That has to stop. We need to create the illusion - and make it real - that welfare recipients have a life barely above homelessness. Sardine can for a place, absolutely NO creature comforts, eating cold beans from a can. When you can have generally the same lifestyle as someone who works 40 hours a week without doing a thing, you'd be a fool to trade that in.
    Air conditioning..seriously? Should be just pitch some tents for them or what? I agree on the gaming consoles, but people need computers and telephones these days to continue an education or get and keep a job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    As much as the right and psuedo-libertarians despise the poor and welfare, they never attack corporate welfare with the same amount of vigor.

    It is almost an axiom.

    I am a very libertarian in nature, but this is the main reason why I like to distance myself from them. They are completely silent on corporate welfare and how it creates a plutocracy while going after personal welfare which is such a small amount of the budget. It is ****ing absurd.
    I've noticed this. It's the consistent ranting and raving over welfare for the poor, but the blatant oversight of corporate welfare that gets me. It's almost an elitist attitude that some people deserve government aid while others do not.


    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    This is a hugely important point that you've made. There are basically two reasons that people are in poverty. Circumstances and nature. If someone is in poverty because the they're newly arrived in America and don't speak the language well, they wasted away their youth on drugs and now can't get back on the right track even though they have the desire to, then helping hand programs can repair the factors that are keeping them in poverty. Other people though are there because of who they are - they have poor impulse control, they have little future time orientation, they have poor decision making skills, they're not very smart, etc and even if you hold their hand and put them on the right track, as soon as you let go of their hand, they'll fall off the track and be back where they started.
    What do you honestly think society should do with these people?

    If they are useless, what is the point of helping them?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  4. #144
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    What do you honestly think society should do with these people?

    If they are useless, what is the point of helping them?
    The point of helping them is that it keeps the liberal dream alive - give me enough money and resources and I can fix the problem. To many liberals, to acknowledge reality is to abandon hope. That shatters an entire world view.

    These people are a drag on society. This is the same principle I invoke upthread with respect to the math. This class of people who can't be helped require a lot of social welfare. They are also a class with a very high birth rate. The Australians and the Canadians tried to fix a "problem" with their aboriginal communities by, basically, taking the place of the parents. Hoo-boy, that turned out to be a cluster**** of epic proportions. There are already ideas being mooted in liberal circles about launching more intensive social interventions for the children born into multigenerational poverty. First, I personally don't believe it will do enough good and the little good it will do will mostly erode away as the child grows older. The cost of doing this is admitting that this class of people don't know how to raise their own children and shouldn't be trusted to do so. The thing of it is though, as the Canadian and Australian experiments showed, the good liberals can't do much better.

    The best of the worst solutions is already being tried. Here is a charity which I support quite generously, Project Prevention:



    Project Prevention offers cash incentives to women and men addicted to drugs and/or alcohol to use long term or permanent birth control. Project Prevention is a National, 501 (C) 3 organization using your donations to stop a problem before it happens. We have paid addicts in 50 States and the District of Columbia.

    Our mission is to continue to reach out to addicts offering referrals to drug treatment for those interested and to get them on birth control until they can care for the children they conceive. We are lowering the number of children added to foster care, preventing the addicts from the guilt and pain they feel each time they give birth only to have their child taken away, and preventing suffering of innocent children because even those fortunate enough to be born with no medical or emotional problems after placed in foster care face often a lifetime of longing to feel loved and wanted


    We have to create a powerful enough incentive for people NOT to have kids. Upper class women have that incentive - many of them choose career and "exciting lives" over motherhood. Society needs to create powerful incentives for men and women who are stuck in this class to not have children. Cash grants seem to work. On balance, they save money and lessen hardships in innocent people's lives as well as in the lives of the prospective parents.

  5. #145
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Air conditioning..seriously? Should be just pitch some tents for them or what?

    I agree on the gaming consoles, but people need computers and telephones these days to continue an education or get and keep a job.

    You should do what you feel is right but keep me out of it. If you feel they need air conditioning buy them an air condition. If you feel they need a phone or a computer buy them one of each. Take some responsibility for how you feel about others. If you feel they deserve a better life take your money that is in your pocket right now, go out, and buy them what you think they need. Then figure out a plan to get them whatever it might be. You have the power to do it. Try to believe in your abilities.


    I've noticed this. It's the consistent ranting and raving over welfare for the poor, but the blatant oversight of corporate welfare that gets me. It's almost an elitist attitude that some people deserve government aid while others do not.
    Start a thread on the topic if you want to hear me. Just know its more or less a copy and paste of what I said here just with a different context. However I find liberals support corporate welfare if its to their benefit. Take GM, take Green energy as examples of the hypocrisy. I however never support it, be it oil, be it building of power plants, be it bailouts, be it whatever it might be. I believe in capitalism, not government assistance of business for either their benefit or mine.


    What do you honestly think society should do with these people?
    Nothing.

    If they are useless, what is the point of helping them?
    That is a question you have to answer yourself when you decide to actually use you own power to do so.
    Last edited by Henrin; 08-26-11 at 09:32 PM.

  6. #146
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The point of helping them is that it keeps the liberal dream alive - give me enough money and resources and I can fix the problem. To many liberals, to acknowledge reality is to abandon hope. That shatters an entire world view.

    These people are a drag on society. This is the same principle I invoke upthread with respect to the math. This class of people who can't be helped require a lot of social welfare. They are also a class with a very high birth rate. The Australians and the Canadians tried to fix a "problem" with their aboriginal communities by, basically, taking the place of the parents. Hoo-boy, that turned out to be a cluster**** of epic proportions. There are already ideas being mooted in liberal circles about launching more intensive social interventions for the children born into multigenerational poverty. First, I personally don't believe it will do enough good and the little good it will do will mostly erode away as the child grows older. The cost of doing this is admitting that this class of people don't know how to raise their own children and shouldn't be trusted to do so. The thing of it is though, as the Canadian and Australian experiments showed, the good liberals can't do much better.

    The best of the worst solutions is already being tried. Here is a charity which I support quite generously, Project Prevention:



    Project Prevention offers cash incentives to women and men addicted to drugs and/or alcohol to use long term or permanent birth control. Project Prevention is a National, 501 (C) 3 organization using your donations to stop a problem before it happens. We have paid addicts in 50 States and the District of Columbia.

    Our mission is to continue to reach out to addicts offering referrals to drug treatment for those interested and to get them on birth control until they can care for the children they conceive. We are lowering the number of children added to foster care, preventing the addicts from the guilt and pain they feel each time they give birth only to have their child taken away, and preventing suffering of innocent children because even those fortunate enough to be born with no medical or emotional problems after placed in foster care face often a lifetime of longing to feel loved and wanted


    We have to create a powerful enough incentive for people NOT to have kids. Upper class women have that incentive - many of them choose career and "exciting lives" over motherhood. Society needs to create powerful incentives for men and women who are stuck in this class to not have children. Cash grants seem to work. On balance, they save money and lessen hardships in innocent people's lives as well as in the lives of the prospective parents.
    That's a good plan. Ultimately children guarantee that people will stay in poverty, and they even make a borderline financial situation much worse. Children also interfere with plans for advancement. Overall, they are simply not cost effective for even those who are well off. The only purpose they serve is genetic immortality, and/or emotional fulfillment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    You should do what you feel is right but keep me out of it. If you feel they need air conditioning buy them an air condition. If you feel they need a phone or a computer buy them one of each. Take some responsibility for how you feel about others. If you feel they deserve a better life take your money that is in your pocket right now, go out, and buy them what you think they need. Then figure out a plan to get them whatever it might be. You have the power to do it. Try to believe in your abilities.
    I guess I don't need to ask you what you think.



    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Start a thread on the topic if you want to hear me. Just know its more or less a copy and paste of what I said here just with a different context. However I find liberals support corporate welfare if its to their benefit. Take GM, take Green energy as examples of the hypocrisy. I however never support it, be it oil, be it building of power plants, be it bailouts, be it whatever it might be. I believe in capitalism, not government assistance of business for either their benefit or mine.
    yeah, I get the idea. You are only concerned for your self. No need to start a thread to hear that self absorbed nonsense.



    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Nothing.
    Maybe someday you'll need someone else's help, and that will be how they will respond to you. Unfortunately, i do not believe in karma.


    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is a question you have to answer yourself when you decide to actually use you own power to do so.
    When mankind can see beyond its own short sighted view of what is really important, perhaps these questions will no longer need to be asked.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  7. #147
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    That's a good plan. Ultimately children guarantee that people will stay in poverty, and they even make a borderline financial situation much worse. Children also interfere with plans for advancement.
    Yes, this I agree with. The data very clearly supports this position.

    Overall, they are simply not cost effective for even those who are well off. The only purpose they serve is genetic immortality, and/or emotional fulfillment.
    This I disagree with. When we start talking about solidly middle class and up, children tend to be beneficial to society, though they are still a money-pit for parents. We get this split because liberals have instituted policies which socialize the gains that children produce away from parents and directed them towards society and they've privatized the costs, though they are working their damnedest to socialize the costs as well. If we could re-engineer the social contract then we could work to insure that the costs that parents incur in raising their children are returned to them by the gains that the children produce later in life. Too many of those gains go towards society and not enough go back towards the parents. This creates a huge disincentive for parents to have children.

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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    I guess I don't need to ask you what you think.
    Have some confidence in yourself.


    yeah, I get the idea. You are only concerned for your self. No need to start a thread to hear that self absorbed nonsense.
    Not really. I am concerned about many people. What I told you to do is what I do about it.

    Maybe someday you'll need someone else's help, and that will be how they will respond to you. Unfortunately, i do not believe in karma.
    If they are unwilling that is fine. I would never hold that against them.

    When mankind can see beyond its own short sighted view of what is really important, perhaps these questions will no longer need to be asked.
    When people stop trying to solve problems with the property of the unwilling and truly embrace the giving of the willing we will truly grow as a people.

  9. #149
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Have some confidence in yourself.

    Not really. I am concerned about many people. What I told you to do is what I do about it.

    If they are unwilling that is fine. I would never hold that against them.

    When people stop trying to solve problems with the property of the unwilling and truly embrace the giving of the willing we will truly grow as a people.
    It's not that the liberal mindset is incapable of seeing your point, or even agreeing with it. I think that we all would prefer that eventually that becomes the way of it. I am of the opinion that we simply disagree about how to get there. One view (yours, or rather, that of the right, I believe) is that when things have gotten as bad as they can reasonably get then maybe people will wake up and start living up to their responsibilities because they will realize they have no other choice.

    The liberal viewpoint is that things have already gotten as bad as they can reasonably get, and we already don't have a choice. But there are a great many people who don't have the freedom to live up to their responsibilities yet, and liberals would very much like them to be able to do that. Yes, of course there are examples of some who do climb out of the great pit of poverty and find a "respectable" place in this society. But there are more who might have a lot to offer the world, if there were not so many barriers in place designed to keep them where they are. Liberals would like to remove those barriers and allow everyone to have a freedom to move along the socio-economic scale that is only limited by their potential and their ambition to reach that potential and the ethical integrity to do so without stepping on others on the way up. Right now, that's not possible. We could make it possible, but that would require the folks at the other end of the scale to do the right thing, wake up and live up to their responsibilities first. The programs everyone on the right keeps shouting about don't need to exist forever, and I don't think anyone wants that. But, like other wars our nation has had to fight, this war against corruption and selfishness (on both sides.. no group is completely innocent or guilty here) may require another good surge from the wealthy in order to make it right.

    It's really all about timing. Historically speaking, there is a cycle of growth and decay and violent change that marks the evolution of society, and when the weight of poverty exceeds societies tensile strength, the bonds of the social contract snap, and there is a terrible price to pay before things get set right again. For the first time we are reaching that point with our eyes open and awareness of our own evolutionary process. Liberals believe that accepting responsibility means acting to address the imbalance before society snaps. To repeat that part of the cycle when we have the power to prevent it is just wrong. Otherwise we are giving tacit permission for this ancient vendetta between the poor and the wealthy to continue.

    Earlier in this thread, I made the argument that we need to look beyond our own lives and invest in the future to make a better place for our descendants. The one voice from the right which answered that argument ridiculed it as a "Liberal guilt trip." So now I have to ask, what is the prosperity of our grandchildren worth? What does a person get for selling their great-grand kids into a world where the American Dream no longer exists? Is the knowledge that you never compromised your ideals even so much as to consider a better alternative really worth their futures? If this is a guilt trip, that I must lay on you, then I might as well give it some weight.
    Last edited by Just1Voice; 08-27-11 at 03:29 AM.

  10. #150
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Have some confidence in yourself.




    Not really. I am concerned about many people. What I told you to do is what I do about it.



    If they are unwilling that is fine. I would never hold that against them.



    When people stop trying to solve problems with the property of the unwilling and truly embrace the giving of the willing we will truly grow as a people.
    And what do you do about poverty?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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