View Poll Results: What would a welfare that rewards self-sufficiency look like? Select all that apply:

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  • 1.) It would not allow recipients more than is needed to survive

    7 46.67%
  • 2.) The reward for getting off welfare would be: recipients could afford more than necessities

    3 20.00%
  • 3.) programs would be temporary (recipients can only be on welfare for a certain period)

    11 73.33%
  • 4.) It would grant small monetary payouts for every step forward

    6 40.00%
  • 5.) Recipients would experience a sufficiently higher standard of living after getting off welfare

    6 40.00%
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Thread: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficient?

  1. #131
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    You and others might want to refrain from making wild and crazy statements about people you don't know but think you know how and what they think.

    I am a Conservative therefore on the right and not only do I not despise the poor and those on welfare I have been there after having my identity stolen and all my money taken at the same time.

    It has taken nearly 6 years to partially recover from it and I am not alone, Conservatives are not all rich they just think for themselves and have a moral compass that works.
    You are a riot. You want me to stop making generalizations, yet you respond with a personal anecdote that has no relevance to this debate (which I am sorry hear). However, you try to make your sob story into an actual argument by ending your statement with a wild generalization that all Conservatives think for themselves and have a moral compass.

    lmfao. I see through your antics.
    Last edited by Antiderivative; 08-26-11 at 06:32 AM.

  2. #132
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiderivative View Post
    When you normalize the data to adjust for inflation, the average "white" family was earning the same back in the 1960's (around $33k if I do believe). A $55k median HH income is roughly equivalent to a median HH back in the early 60's.
    That's a pretty impressive trick you're showing us - calculating the specifics of your conclusion all the way back to the early 60s when the data I posted only goes back to 1992.

    Anyways, so much for your made-up numbers. Here is what the real numbers show when we break down the household income to a per-person basis.




    Let's break this household income down.

    White families, between 1992 and 2009, have seen their per-person income jump 23.16%
    Black families, between 1992 and 2009, have seen their per-person income jump 32.31%
    Hispanic families, between 1992 and 2009, have seen their per-person income jump 21.00%


    I'll make my point again, when we import poverty, which is what we're doing by favoring a disproportionately large Hispanic influx, then we skew the calculations for how native-born Americans are doing in the economy.

    Black income is growing the fastest, no doubt due to all of the favorable hiring quotas that liberals have instituted all throughout the economy, but they still lag white incomes.

    Black birth rates are only a bit higher (2.168) than white birth rates (2.112) and both are far below Hispanic birth rates (2.995)

    The upshot here is that the fastest growing demographic group in the US, via both immigration and birth, are Hispanics, and they have the lowest income as measured by household income divided by people in the household. So, when aggregated figures are reported in the press, all details like this are completely lost and uninformed people blame the economic system for depressed wages when, in fact, a good portion of the cause can be isolated to demographic shifts. In fact, the shifts are worse to come because when we look at births to unmarried women, the white birth rate (48.1/1,000) is lower than the Black birth rate (72.6/1,000) which in turn is lower than the Hispanic birth rate (108.4/1,000). This data suggests that the children are going to be requiring welfare support, will face school difficulties, and will face diminished job prospects when they reach adulthood, thus depressing aggregated income statistics even further.

    Yeah, immigration and demographic shifts are a big part of the income problem that liberals like to complain about so much.

  3. #133
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Receiving welfare should include mandatory work or participation in a 2-year certification program for a field experiencing growth or high job demand. Upon completion of said program you will have access to an additional 6 months of payments while you seek a job in that field. At the end of that additional 6 months all benefits are discontinued.

    Welfare recipients should also be mandated to take child development and intro to education classes as well as financial planning and money management classes.
    Who's going to pay for all that free schooling?
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


  4. #134
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    self sufficiency is not something everyone can attain. the economy can only support a certain percentage of "self sufficient" citizens. the economy requires the remaining percentage to be "not self sufficient." there are only so many jobs in the economy that can allow self sufficiency.

    "Cyclical or Keynesian unemployment, also known as deficient-demand unemployment, occurs when there is not enough aggregate demand in the economy to provide jobs for everyone who wants to work."

    Unemployment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    we can find evidence of this type of unemployment when we look at unemployment rates for college graduates.

    "The jobless rate for Americans with at least a bachelor's degree rose to 5.1%, the highest since 1970 when records were first kept, reports the Bureau of Labor Statistics. "

    Unemployment rate for college grads is highest since 1970 - USATODAY.com

    The people with bachelor's degrees did the right thing to try to be self sufficient. Unfortunately, there arent enough college graduate level jobs in the economy to support "self sufficiency" for everyone with a college degree. You cant just tell everyone to "work hard" and "take personal responsibility" and "be self sufficient" if the economy cannot support everyone to be "self sufficient."

  5. #135
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for its own existence. - Ronald Reagan

    Anyway, it just needs to be disincentivized. The truth is that people can live quite well off the dole. I've seen people on all sorts of government assistance with their own place, own car, many of what can be listed as luxuries (air conditioning, computers, gaming consoles, etc.). That has to stop. We need to create the illusion - and make it real - that welfare recipients have a life barely above homelessness. Sardine can for a place, absolutely NO creature comforts, eating cold beans from a can. When you can have generally the same lifestyle as someone who works 40 hours a week without doing a thing, you'd be a fool to trade that in.
    Obviously, we need a balance between these two examples..
    I call this refowm/improvements...
    It can be done on a state by state level....doubt the the federal government should even be involved...There will be poor states (deep south) ...people can always move...
    Further, interesting what Ron Reagan had to say about welfare....
    I say this....as long as there is intolerance, hatred,fear, there will be a need for "welfare"..
    Last edited by earthworm; 08-26-11 at 11:25 AM.

  6. #136
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Say What? You think disabled folks should have to work even though they cannot?
    That isn't what he said. He said that disabled people who have skill sets and abilities that allow them to work should be expected to use those skill sets and abilities in a manner which provides them with income.

    A man who is paralyzed from the waist down may still be perfectly capable of performing any number of office-related tasks. Why should he not be expected, then, to perform them?
    Last edited by tessaesque; 08-26-11 at 03:06 PM.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  7. #137
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    Sure.. Those folks on welfare really want to work a lowpaying job over some HIGH paying job all cause they want some foodstamps and/or the check. NOT! You are sterotyping and assuming a lot about people you do not even know.
    I have had a LOT of experience in the system, Kali. And yes, when a system is devised so that you receive MORE if you stay on it, people will chose to stay on it instead of taking a path that will make life more stressful. Here's the scenario:

    You're making $7.25 an hour, 35 hours a week with two children. Because of your income you receive food stamps, welfare, rent assistance, daycare assistance and SCHIP for your children. You're offered a management spot at $10.50 an hour, plus the option to purchase benefits at $350/month. If you accept that job you lose your food stamps, welfare, rent assistance, daycare asisstance, and SCHIP. Which do you choose?

    It happens all the time. I'm not saying that these people prefer to be lazy. I'm saying that a system that doesn't provide a means of acquiring job skills that qualify the recipient for higher pay and better benefits is a system that will leave most people choosing the system over independence. It isn't the recipient's fault the system is built that way, but having a system built that way is part of the reason you don't see a lot of former welfare recipients in high-paying, high-skill jobs 5, 10, or 15 years after being pushed out because of time limits.

    My whole point in this thread has been that we need to provide a system that encourages personal growth and independence. Our current system doesn't.

    You can take it however you want, but your understanding of my post was wrong.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  8. #138
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    Who's going to pay for all that free schooling?
    So let me understand, Mickey. You're okay with your tax money (and more from the "rich") going to pay for people in poverty to stagnate, but paying for a program that will better these people and (at least according to most research) decrease the likelihood of their children living in poverty as adults is off the table? You do realize that welfare is often generational, and that children raised in poverty do worse in school, have a lower college attendance rate, and often end up in poverty themselves, right? So getting them out of poverty will, in all likelihood, save the country money in the long run.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  9. #139
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    So let me understand, Mickey. You're okay with your tax money (and more from the "rich") going to pay for people in poverty to stagnate, but paying for a program that will better these people and (at least according to most research) decrease the likelihood of their children living in poverty as adults is off the table? You do realize that welfare is often generational, and that children raised in poverty do worse in school, have a lower college attendance rate, and often end up in poverty themselves, right? So getting them out of poverty will, in all likelihood, save the country money in the long run.
    But schooling for degrees is expensive. Plus, most college students are poor, so they would all qualify for this free government schooling. Wouldn't we just end up applying a program like this on everyone who wanted to get a degree or certificate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


  10. #140
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    Re: Is it possible to create a welfare system that rewards people to be self-sufficie

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    But schooling for degrees is expensive. Plus, most college students are poor, so they would all qualify for this free government schooling. Wouldn't we just end up applying a program like this on everyone who wanted to get a degree or certificate?
    Most college students don't qualify as "poor" until they're 24, at which time they are no longer required to report their parent's income on the FAFSA form. Until then, their parent's income is weighed to determine their financial obligation. Once they reach 24 (which is 2-3 years after most college students graduate), they can make up to 31k per year and still qualify for Pell Grants as the system current exists. That means that currently, many welfare recipients already qualify for PG, but since this money is first-come/first-serve and not allotted based on need, welfare recipients have no better chance of receiving the aid than do non-welfare recipients.

    Further, the program I suggest would not allow welfare recipients to major in anything they wanted to major in. An AAA degree would not qualify under the program. These would be 2-year vocational certification courses in fields with median incomes above X-dollars. Nursing, CAD drafting, medical assisting, respiratory therapy, radiology and sonography...or other similar programs (even a 2-year cert in child care or social services). Many schools require that part of the course work be completed in-field, and a lot of the programs already have relationships within these industries, giving the students access to contacts in the field.

    I'm not sure why you would think that anybody and everybody would take advantage of this, or even that "poor college students" would. This is a program specifically for welfare recipients, and is a mandatory requirement of continued government aid. So you have to apply and receive welfare benefits before you have access, but you can't receive benefits unless you take part in the program.

    Not including books and supplies, you can get a 2-year certification at the local community college here for $2,600 if you live in district (within Dallas County).
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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