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Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

Why is the middle class the most crippled by income tax? Select all that apply

  • Allowing many people to have a shot at being uber-wealthy is dangerous

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • Making the uber-wealthy share the load would be bad for the economy

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy do

    Votes: 24 75.0%

  • The idea that the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax is a myth

    Votes: 9 28.1%

  • A few wealthy, a few more middle class and many lower class citizens is best

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Total voters
    32
MusicAdventurer said:
Well if you were to believe that everyone should pay the same % of income tax, then you would be supporting the wealthier paying in more taxes.

Why do you feel the wealthy should pay the more taxes?

Your likely response is that as long as everyone is paying the same percentage then it is fair. Which means you support the wealthy paying more total dollars in taxes and consider this to be fair.

While you are headed in the right direction, I do not believe you have a complete understanding of what fair means.

I will demonstrate what I am talking about as so many seem to be lost on the point.

Lets look at a low income individual or family:

Lets assume the lowest figures for living expenses are, on average, as follows:

Rent = $600/mo, $7,200/yr
Food = $200/mo, $2,400/yr

Total of $9,600 per year (this is a very low estimate and only includes food and shelter)

Lets assume that the lowest figures for income is as follows:

$5/hr at 35 hours per week = $175/wk = 9,100 per year (this is also a low estimate and assumes that the individual or family has a job for a whole year)

Now lets apply a tax rate of 15% (also a low percentage considering that everyone is at the same tax rate) and we have a net income of $7,735

Now if we deduct expenses we have a total loss of: $1,865 per year (that's -24% of their net income)

Now lets look at a wealthy individual or household:

Again, lets assume the lowest figures for living expenses are, on average, as follows:

Rent = $600/mo, $7,200/yr
Food = $200/mo, $2,400/yr

Total of $9,600 per year (this is a very low estimate and only includes food and shelter)

Lets assume that the figures for income is as follows:

$1,000,000 per year

Now lets apply a tax rate of 15% (also a low percentage considering that everyone is at the same tax rate) and we have a net income of $850,000

Now if we deduct expenses we have a total surplus of: $840,400 per year (99% of their net income)

Here we see that relative to living expenses, this individual or household still maintains close to 100% of their net income (after income tax and living expenses), while the lowest income family or individual was actually not able to pay their living expense and went into a debt of 24% of their net income (after income tax and living expenses).

So who is actually being hurt more here by a flat tax, the low income household or the high income household? Somehow I do not even see turnip juice being sucked out of the low income individual or family ... I dunno maybe I'm missing something ? ? ? How would everyone benefit from this scenario again? ? ? If the low income family is not able to live, there is no-one to do the richy's dirty work.

such a flat tax would be clearly unfair; a fair tax would be better based on how one's income compares to the lowest average living expenses .. any other way is tyranny (I believe this is why 46% of our country does not pay income tax ... there's nothing to tax! Anyone can see this.) Explain to me how this is not fair again? It never ceases to amaze me when people miss this obvious point. It boggles my mind when people think that a flat tax is somehow fair ... wow .... really? ... wow ...
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Good grief. Ok average low income based on where?. San Fran or backwater Alabama? Way to much difference in cost of living througout the US. It boggles my mind that people expect something for nothing. I was mearly giving my opinion on why the middle class pays so much in taxes. One of the reasons is 46% pay no federal income tax. I never stated what the percentage should be on a flat tax. Heck I can be happy with the way things are. So many are saying the rich does not pay enough. I say they pay within the rules that exists. You care to give your thoughts on the orginal OP or just throw rocks.
 
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mike2810 said:
Good grief. Ok average low income based on where?. San Fran or backwater Alabama? Way to much difference in cost of living througout the US.
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As I said before, the principle is what matters .. I'm not trying to write a law here, just explain a principle

mike2810 said:
Heck I can be happy with the way things are.
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Really? cuz I could have sworn you said:

mike2810 said:
I personally believe everyone should pay the same %,
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(maybe I'm seeing things?)

mike2810 said:
So many are saying the rich does not pay enough. I say they pay within the rules that exists.
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I suppose that would be the legal thing for people to do

mike2810 said:
You care to give your thoughts on the orginal OP or just throw rocks.
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I think the middle class have carried our country on its back for too long, its time for the wealthy to start picking up some slack
 
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MusicAdventurer said:
It has been shown that the middle class pays the most crippling amount of income taxes and the middle class is relatively small. Crippling means that the ratio of living expenses to income tax makes it so that despite one’s increased income, the standard of living has not gone up much and there is still significant hardship. It is clear that most making above $250,000 are not crippled by income tax and instead cannot wrap their minds around the concept of progressive taxation (even though the wealthiest find loopholes out of such taxation). So, why is this the case? Why does the middle class shoulder the largest relative tax burden?
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You have shown nothing of the sort. This is another whine about the rich rant

The top 5% pay more income taxes than the rest of the nation combined. If you count the Middle class as the 2nd, third and fouth quintile (ie 20%-80%) they don't pay anything near what the top 20% pay

even if you call the middle class those between the 15 and 95 percentile, they still pay less of the FIT than the top 5%

and they --be they 60% of the country or 80% of the country sure use A LOT MORE GOVERNMENT resources than the rich. and they tend to be the group that controls who becomes elected
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Then why would you use it as a way to support your argument?



O.K., you are saying that using averages are a " b a d i d e a " and " s t u p i d ." .. does your argument have any more depth .. how is it a bad idea? how is it stupid? My point is, one neeeds to explain themselves in order to be seen as having a valid point .. words and phrases like "bad idea" and "stupid" are not a basis for an argument.



It's called a principle .. a philosophy .. one need not define the exact specifics so long as the logic is sound .. you understood (or maybe you didn't, but I don't see how you couldn't) what that underlying principle was

In my post I said exactly the following:



I used the word phrase "b a s e d o n" - this does not mean geographical differences may not be considered .. however, you are talking chump change now and it would be more problematic to squeeze a few more cents from the poor ... in terms of percentages, the beauty of averages is that it makes a pretty good estimation of things ... but, I know there are other statistical measurements that could be used .. please, if you have another statistical reference you would like to use .. name it already! This is getting off topic as you are diverting away from the principle of the matter ... tax should be based on ratios of low end living expenses to income (this is the principle of the matter, we can argue about what measurements to use some other time or in some other post)



Again, you clearly are not paying attention to the principle of the matter .. if you were you would be suggesting how we could use this principle and what measurements and factors should be given and taken into consideration by giving specific examples yourself .. draw out a scenario if you like using mathematics as I did, instead of criticizing, add, help, contribute .. you following me?
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It's ironic that you're calling me out for making a poor argument when all I did was point out the current system. Then again, if you fail to understand how idiotic your "point" was on the basis of the standards I laid out, then I really can't help you understand. Your little comparison is a fallacy, and it fails to make the point you think you're so clever in making.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
Yet you still have done nothing but make accusations and buzzwords yourself, i.e. "liberal propaganda" - you have not provided any mathematical or situational proof for your position, your argument is a joke

your only point is that you think people are "whining about is that well-to-do people have more disposable income" - which clearly shows your level of understanding

we are talking about relative damage due to taxes - imposing tax debt on low income citizens only creates debt, not revenue - if you ask me .. if anything is propaganda, its your way of twisting the facts without backing theory/evidence

I'm not sure it matters anyway because certain groups of people only care about being right and if they can throw a few catch phrases around that their buddies can cheer at ... they must be right .. right ?

hey, don't hate the messenger :)
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You don't seem to get it. If taxes are so bad on the poor maybe they should not engage in activities that require more and more government action which in turn require OTHERS to pay (and be damaged) by more and more taxes.

tell me why value received should play no role in the imposition of taxes?
 
TurtleDude said:
You don't seem to get it. If taxes are so bad on the poor maybe they should not engage in activities that require more and more government action which in turn require OTHERS to pay (and be damaged) by more and more taxes.
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No you don't get it. If taxes are so bad on the rich maybe they should not engage in activities that require more and more government action which in turn require OTHERS to pay (and be damaged) by more and more taxes.
 
Catawba said:
No you don't get it. If taxes are so bad on the rich maybe they should not engage in activities that require more and more government action which in turn require OTHERS to pay (and be damaged) by more and more taxes.
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your silly claim has no basis in fact. It would have some merit if each group was paying the same amount of per capita tax. The richest 1% pay 40 times more taxes than a group that actually pays its per capita fair share. Most groups pay far less than their fair share
 
TurtleDude said:
You have shown nothing of the sort. This is another whine about the rich rant

The top 5% pay more income taxes than the rest of the nation combined. If you count the Middle class as the 2nd, third and fouth quintile (ie 20%-80%) they don't pay anything near what the top 20% pay

even if you call the middle class those between the 15 and 95 percentile, they still pay less of the FIT than the top 5%

and they --be they 60% of the country or 80% of the country sure use A LOT MORE GOVERNMENT resources than the rich. and they tetnd to be the group that controls who becomes elected
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The rich pay more because they earn much more, the rich take advantage of offshore tax havens.
 
TurtleDude said:
your silly claim has no basis in fact. It would have some merit if each group was paying the same amount of per capita tax. The richest 1% pay 40 times more taxes than a group that actually pays its per capita fair share. Most groups pay far less than their fair share
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I don't think you understand the concept and how we are defining the problem. We are not looking at the total amount of money taxed but rather the burden that tax has on those that pay taxes whom are below the $250,000 level.

This was demonstrated in one of my OP's (see link below):

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls...pling-amount-income-tax-2.html#post1059748343
 
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pbrauer said:
The rich pay more because they earn much more, the rich take advantage of offshore tax havens.
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how many rich do that? and even if they do they still pay 40% of the income tax and all the death tax

remind me how much of the income and death tax the bottom 50% pay
 
MusicAdventurer said:
I don't think you understand the concept and how we are defining the problem. We are not looking at the total amount of money taxed but rather the burden that tax has on those that pay taxes whom are below the $250,000 level.
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I know what you are trying to do-you are trying to justify making those who pay too much taxes pay even more

tell me why what someone uses has no relevance?


You do understand that FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY is not an argument I find persuasive

If you cannot afford the level of government you want, you should not demand that level of government
 
TurtleDude said:
I know what you are trying to do
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I am trying to explain a moral imperative

TurtleDude said:
you are trying to justify making those who pay too much taxes pay even more
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If that is what given said moral imperative, then that is what should be done, if not then it should not, simple

TurtleDude said:
tell me why what someone uses has no relevance?
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It had the same relevance that a minimum wage has .. it was explained in that OP

TurtleDude said:
You do understand that FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY is not an argument I find persuasive
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If I supported the "FROM EACH ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY" argument, I would be arguing that every citizen have equal outcome, i.e. equal income regardless of effort, talent, etc. That is not what I am arguing at all.

TurtleDude said:
If you cannot afford the level of government you want, you should not demand that level of government
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This kind of thinking is not democratic, not that a democracy does not have its faults, but I assumed we were operating under the assumption that a democracy was still the current state of government (or at least our semi-democratic system; corporations invariably have more power than the people) .... in an ideal democracy, citizens make educated decisions regarding what is best for the country as a whole, this includes allowing businessmen/women to be free to amass great amounts of wealth .. anything else is tyrannical
 
MusicAdventurer said:
While this may be your question, it is not necessarily mine. While I think the government could use revenues more effectively, I am not convinced that this would necessarily mean that less overall taxes is the solution; this is mainly because I am not well versed on every single detail of the budget.



Are you saying that citizens shouldn't push for the best country they can?



Perhaps .. I am of the opinion that if the wealthy were taxed at 100% (which is obviously a gross exaggeration on your part, lol!) we would have a very large government ... it power would rival that of the current corporations.



So, using your reasoning, we should continue to allow the middle class to shoulder the tax burden simply because other countries are immoral? Please tell me this is not what you are saying ...
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You premise that high taxes makes a better country is bull****. You just want to steal from those that work, and give to those that don't.
 
tessaesque said:
Then again, if you fail to understand how idiotic your "point" was on the basis of the standards I laid out, then I really can't help you understand.
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Wow there, hold your horses .. no need to get defensive .. if I find holes in arguments, I point them out ,, and often times people find arguments illogical because A. they are, B. the person hasn't really explained their argument, or C. all of the above

tessaesque said:
Your little comparison is a fallacy, and it fails to make the point you think you're so clever in making.
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Really? And what was my point? You must have psychic powers, because if you claim to know what point I was trying to make, then I must have explained it clearly enough ... so ... what gives ? ? ?
 
American said:
You premise that high taxes makes a better country is bull****. You just want to steal from those that work, and give to those that don't.
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those who want others to pay more taxes so that they, themselves, can pay less or get more government goodies always try to cloak their greed in high minded nonsense about the "greater good" and fairness
 
American said:
You premise that high taxes makes a better country is bull****. You just want to steal from those that work, and give to those that don't.
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What premise did I propose that said higher taxes make a better country? I think all I mentioned was that something has to be done regarding the deficit, temporary tax increases or closing of some tax loopholes for the most wealthy may be only part of the solution .. I also support less spending on military, less corporate welfare, less spending on pork-barelled programs and so on. Taxes aren't stealing and the middle class have been paying a tax rate that is more crippling to them, than the rich have for years .. its nothing new .. so its time to take a little load off their (middle class workers) shoulders or at least avoid putting anymore on them
 
MusicAdventurer said:
What premise did I propose that said higher taxes make a better country? I think all I mentioned was that something has to be done regarding the deficit, temporary tax increases or closing of some tax loopholes for the most wealthy may be only part of the solution .. I also support less spending on military, less corporate welfare, less spending on pork-barelled programs and so on. Taxes aren't stealing and the middle class have been paying a tax rate that is more crippling to them, than the rich have for years .. its nothing new .. so its time to take a little load off their (middle class workers) shoulders or at least avoid putting anymore on them
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many in the middle class pay no income tax so how are they being crippled by it?

and who do you think is responsible for our massive government

the middle class or the top 1-4%
 
TurtleDude said:
those who want others to pay more taxes so that they, themselves, can pay less or get more government goodies always try to cloak their greed in high minded nonsense about the "greater good" and fairness
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If only you knew .. lol .. how many times do I have to spell it out for you .. sure the poor aren't happy with things and that's understandable ... sure the middle class aren't happy with things and that's understandable .. but I have no empathy for the wealthy that complain over chump change and paying their fair share .. that my friend is the true definition of greed .. fortunately there are a few wealthy who see things differently than you do
 
TurtleDude said:
many in the middle class pay no income tax so how are they being crippled by it?
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Last time I checked, households that make between $25,000 and $250,000 per year (depending on the family size) pay taxes and a very healthy portion. And that includes part of the lower class!

TurtleDude said:
and who do you think is responsible for our massive government

the middle class or the top 1-4%
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Corporations are likely more to blame than anyone else, they're the one's padding our politicians pockets. Those politicians are great at adding extras onto every bill that is passed, making sure to take care of their "special interest groups" .. that's how government got so big. Take away some of the corporation's power and amend our founding documents and you should see our government become more efficient. Continue to cater to the corporations and we all loose.
 
MusicAdventurer said:
If only you knew .. lol .. how many times do I have to spell it out for you .. sure the poor aren't happy with things and that's understandable ... sure the middle class aren't happy with things and that's understandable .. but I have no empathy for the wealthy that complain over chump change and paying their fair share .. that my friend is the true definition of greed .. fortunately there are a few wealthy who see things differently than you do
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chump change

what idiocy. most of us in the top one percent (ie those of us not making over 5 million a year) are paying an effective federal tax rate that is the highest of any group-24%. add on state income taxes, and the death tax (which you dems want back at 55 cents on every dollar over a million) and its hardly chump change

you are the greedy one-claiming others should pay more taxes when you are not willing to pay the same rates you want to impose on others

its also dishonest to claim people like me don't pay my fair share

what do I get that you don't get for me paying 300-400K of taxes
 
TurtleDude said:
your silly claim has no basis in fact. It would have some merit if each group was paying the same amount of per capita tax. The richest 1% pay 40 times more taxes than a group that actually pays its per capita fair share. Most groups pay far less than their fair share
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You don't have a clue about how our progressive tax system is supposed to work. The more you make, the more you are required to pay.

How do you tax the classes more that only own 15% of the country's wealth? The top 20% owns 85% of the country's wealth, how much do you think they should own, and why?
 
Catawba said:
You don't have a clue about how our progressive tax system is supposed to work. The more you make, the more you are required to pay.

How do you tax the classes more that only own 15% of the country's wealth? The top 20% owns 85% of the country's wealth, how much do you think they should own, and why?
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its funny that you equate my disagreement with the PIT-which I fully understand (remind me of your legal training and how many tax law courses you took) as not understanding. The PIT allows politicians to buy votes by only imposing high taxes on a small group.

I think people should own what they can afford

sorry socialists, I don't have a problem with the way income is distributed in this country. If you want to own more than make yourself more competitive and stop whining for the government to give you someone else's property
 
TurtleDude said:
chump change

what idiocy. most of us in the top one percent (ie those of us not making over 5 million a year) are paying an effective federal tax rate that is the highest of any group-24%. add on state income taxes, and the death tax (which you dems want back at 55 cents on every dollar over a million) and its hardly chump change
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*sobs* I just made 4,000,000 and will make it again next year .. my life if ruined and so stressfull because I'll only be able to play with $3,040,000 .. its a tragedy I tell you, a tragedy

TurtleDude said:
you are the greedy one-claiming others should pay more taxes when you are not willing to pay the same rates you want to impose on others

its also dishonest to claim people like me don't pay my fair share

what do I get that you don't get for me paying 300-400K of taxes
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Whoa .. you are making some very personal assumptions my friend ... not all progressives are poor

Oh and I am sorry I didn't realize .. the above sob story was inaccurate it should go something like this:

*sobs* I just made 1,500,000 and will make it again next year .. my life if ruined and so stressfull because I'll only be able to play with $1,140,000 .. its a tragedy I tell you, a tragedy
 
TurtleDude said:
sorry socialists, I don't have a problem with the way income is distributed in this country. If you want to own more than make yourself more competitive and stop whining for the government to give you someone else's property
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I hope you're not lumping me into your "socialist" categorization .. I have not problem with people amass great wealth

I do have a problem with a system that does not afford equal opportunity

I am also opposed to any system that would try to drain tax money out of turnips

Finally, I am for any programs that allow people live and to make a living wage
 
MusicAdventurer said:
*sobs* I just made 4,000,000 and will make it again next year .. my life if ruined and so stressfull because I'll only be able to play with $3,040,000 .. its a tragedy I tell you, a tragedy



Whoa .. you are making some very personal assumptions my friend ... not all progressives are poor

Oh and I am sorry I didn't realize .. the above sob story was inaccurate it should go something like this:

*sobs* I just made 1,500,000 and will make it again next year .. my life if ruined and so stressfull because I'll only be able to play with $1,140,000 .. its a tragedy I tell you, a tragedy
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libs who are envious of the wealthy always resort to that silly argument

tell me what do I get for paying so much more than you do?

you seem to think that if someone can afford it, they have a duty to pay and pay and pay
 
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