View Poll Results: Why is the middle class the most crippled by income tax? Select all that apply

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  • Allowing many people to have a shot at being uber-wealthy is dangerous

    1 1.19%
  • Making the uber-wealthy share the load would be bad for the economy

    0 0%
  • The middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy do

    30 35.71%
  • The idea that the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax is a myth

    54 64.29%
  • A few wealthy, a few more middle class and many lower class citizens is best

    3 3.57%
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Thread: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

  1. #291
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    For the man who makes $40 a month, that $40 is extraordinarily valuable to him. Without it, he will have no food, he will be unable to pay the rent and maintain a home, he may even not survive.

    As for the man who makes $100,000 a month, $40 is practically nothing to him. If he looses that same $40 that the first man has, it will no impact at all on his life.

    Income in the form of money does not necessarily carry the same value from person to person. Many people have a hard time grasping this subject, but trust me understanding this is the key to understanding a progressive tax system.

    Perhaps one day, you will understand too.
    maybe that means those who are at the bottom rung will try to earn more.

    I don't accept from each according of their ability devoid of value received.



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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    The difference being permanence. A man will always be a man (with admitted exceptions). A black person will always be black (with admitted exceptions). But a poor college student might someday be a rich engineer.

    Let's take an example from the private sector. If I overdraft my account, I get a fee. Overdraft fees are overwhelmingly charged to poorer account holders. Is that discriminatory? Now, if overdraft fees were exclusively reserved for black clients, would that be discriminatory?
    Your example A: no; Your example B: yes; however...

    You're equating financial success with having don something wrong, ie over-drafting an account. This is consistent with the liberal premise that the rich are somehow evil and therefore need to be penalized.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    And it goes beyond fees and penalties. The higher your balance in a CD, the higher the rate of interest.
    A CD does not change it's maturity rate over time. A person, however, typicality does change their income over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    Likewise with credit cards, the higher the debt, the greater the rate of interest.
    Your equating personal income with somehow owing the government something based on the value of that income instead of the government actual needs to operate (which necessarily precludes Obama'Care et-al)

    Your financial success, your income, is not something you owe the government. You did not take money from the government the way one does a credit card company, with the promise to pay it back + a service fee.

    Your net value not something which the government first owns and then decides to disperse to you. It is yours first, and the government has the privilege to be reimbursed the cost of providing basic services. The government's costs do not increase the more you earn the way a credit card company is taking more risk the more you borrow from them. Government costs are lowered, however, the higher income you have. Given that, the more income you make, the less tax you should have to pay, since your not drawing on government services nearly as much.

    If you want a progressive taxation, then we're going to treat it like insurance classifications. You will be placed in a category with other 'similarly-situated' people, and your tax rate will be based on the risk to the government of that category. We will have a whole new tax version of a FICO score for you to determine not only your premiums, but also what benefits you can draw.

    Just as a young, healthy individual who does not have a dangerous habbie or usual occupation will pay a lower premium rate then an older smoker who sky-dives, so will *some* lower income groups pay a greater % in taxes then richer groups. The more likely you are to draw from government assistance, the more taxes you will pay. Working hard and elevating yourself to a better risk category rewards you with lower taxes. Those who choose to sit around and never do anything with their lives will be punished through higher taxes accordingly.

    Or we can just charge everyone a flat % across the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    Then there's the nature of equality itself. Is it more fair that everyone pay the same rate or the same amount? Is it fair that one mail clerk makes $14/hour and one makes $8/hour?
    While I advocate taxing consumption over income (which will actually get more money out of the rich then taxing their income), either way everyone should be charged the same %. The more you earn, the higher total amount of taxes you pay. The more you buy, the more total amount of taxes you pay.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-26-11 at 11:46 PM.

  3. #293
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Just as a young, healthy individual who does not have a dangerous habbie or usual occupation will pay a lower premium rate then an older smoker who sky-dives, so will *some* lower income groups pay a greater % in taxes then richer groups. The more likely you are to draw from government assistance, the more taxes you will pay. Working hard and elevating yourself to a better risk category rewards you with lower taxes. Those who choose to sit around and never do anything with their lives will be punished through higher taxes accordingly.
    Doesn't this, in a way, defeat the purpose?

    The more you tax the poorer groups, the less money they're going to have to pay for the necessities privately, and the more they are going to depend on government help..
    Last edited by David D.; 08-26-11 at 11:57 PM.

  4. #294
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    Doesn't this, in a way, defeat the purpose?

    The more you tax the poorer groups, the less money they're going to have to pay for the necessities privately, and the more they are going to depend on government help..
    You're the one who wanted to equate taxes with credit, not me. I just followed your argument to it's logical conclusion. It's not surprising you don't like it.

    I'm all for charging everyone the same % across the board, no exemptions, no write offs. Yeah you don't get a brake for having kids, but the rich don't get any loopholes to hide money in, either.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-26-11 at 11:58 PM.

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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You're the one who wanted to equate taxes with credit, not me.

    I'm all for charging everyone the same % across the board, no exemptions, no write offs. Yeah you don't get a brake for having kids, but the rich don't get any loopholes to hide money in, either.
    Taking 20% of a poor person's income will have a much more significant impact than taking 20% of a rich person's income. And sure, the poor person will receive maybe like 10% back in government aid but then what's the point. Why not just cut out all the middle-man and tax them 10% in the first place?
    Last edited by David D.; 08-27-11 at 12:09 AM.

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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    Taking 20% of a poor person's income will have a much more significant impact than taking 20% of a rich person's income.
    Uh no it will have the exact same impact.....20%.

    We shouldn't be taxing income at all in the first place....we should be taxing consumption. I don't know any poor people buying capitol assets for a business, buying private aircraft and taking lavish vacations.

    It would seem to me that a poor person is using most of their income to exist, while a rich person is using more of their income for investments and pleasure. 20% of 100 is more than 20% of 10.

    If a poor person wants to improve their situation, taxing income means their savings, 401K, retirement, roth ira, etc, will no be touched; and when withdrawn, that person who worked for their retirement will not be charged just for breathing. They will be charged based on what they buy, and therefore have control.

    Delete inheritance taxes. That estate has already been taxed and has paid. It's nothing buy pure greed to tax someone for dieing, or tax their family for surviving.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-27-11 at 12:17 AM.

  7. #297
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    Taking 20% of a poor person's income will have a much more significant impact than taking 20% of a rich person's income. And sure, the poor person will receive maybe like 10% back in government aid but then what's the point. Why not just cut out all the middle-man and tax them 10% in the first place?
    I believe Goshin has made a similar point--of course the main reason for the middleman is the main reason why rich democrat politicians support such programs-because of the money they can sponge off such a system. Its also why many rich lefties try to derail private charity-they don't get their cut.

    but one of the main reasons to tax the poor is not to gain revenue but to give them proper feedback and education about government and the fact that government spending costs money in the form of taxes. Maybe if the poor learn that lesson they will cut back their constant demands for more and more government that they currently expect OTHERS to pay for



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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Uh no it will have the exact same impact.....20%.
    You spend 100% of your monthly income on the essentials (food, shelter, clothing) and someone takes 20% of that, it will have a far greater impact than if you spend 30-40% on those same essentials and have the rest to spend/save on other things.
    Last edited by David D.; 08-27-11 at 12:09 AM.

  9. #299
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by David D. View Post
    You spend 100% of your monthly intake on the essentials (food, shelter, clothing) and someone takes 20% of that, it will have a far greater impact than if you spend 30-40% on those same essentials and have the rest to spend/save on other things.
    Is the failure to make enough to pay for what you demand something others should be tasked with covering?



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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Is the failure to make enough to pay for what you demand something others should be tasked with covering?
    Too simple Turtle. There are those who are lazy leeches, but there are also those who are trying and just do not have the skills to make more than minimum wage.

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