View Poll Results: Why is the middle class the most crippled by income tax? Select all that apply

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  • Allowing many people to have a shot at being uber-wealthy is dangerous

    1 1.19%
  • Making the uber-wealthy share the load would be bad for the economy

    0 0%
  • The middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy do

    30 35.71%
  • The idea that the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax is a myth

    54 64.29%
  • A few wealthy, a few more middle class and many lower class citizens is best

    3 3.57%
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Thread: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

  1. #21
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    The fewer people who realize that loopholes exist to incentivize positive externalities, the worse position we will be in.

    God forbid liberals take an econ course here or there. Must be why they have time to sit around and bitch.

  2. #22
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    So is spin, apparently.

    So basically what the OP is whining about is that well-to-do people have more disposable income. The rest is just jealous banter. Using buzzwords like "crippling" just makes his point go from moot to laughable.

    You can buy into the liberal propaganda if you want, which you will...other threads have proven this to be true. I'll ignore it.
    Yet you still have done nothing but make accusations and buzzwords yourself, i.e. "liberal propaganda" - you have not provided any mathematical or situational proof for your position, your argument is a joke

    your only point is that you think people are "whining about is that well-to-do people have more disposable income" - which clearly shows your level of understanding

    we are talking about relative damage due to taxes - imposing tax debt on low income citizens only creates debt, not revenue - if you ask me .. if anything is propaganda, its your way of twisting the facts without backing theory/evidence

    I'm not sure it matters anyway because certain groups of people only care about being right and if they can throw a few catch phrases around that their buddies can cheer at ... they must be right .. right ?

    hey, don't hate the messenger

  3. #23
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    The fewer people who realize that loopholes exist to incentivize positive externalities, the worse position we will be in.

    God forbid liberals take an econ course here or there. Must be why they have time to sit around and bitch.
    Very classy words

    However, as someone who has taken econ courses and who has had experience working with those who use said loopholes .. the uses are a joke usually .. often individuals do the equivalent of fraud and or invest in wasteful endeavors that do not prosper and thus do not help society .. I cannot count how many losses and debts I've seen accrue due to a richie trying to evade taxes - some spend more time and money trying to avoid taxes than they would had they just paid up .. sad really

    In the end, if despite all the bad debt, said loopholes are actually good for the economy, then good for them

    However, if these loopholes are as good for the economy as you say they are ... why aren't things looking so much better? Hey .. if they actually worked and did what they were intended to do (stimulate the economy) I'd have no problem with it .. however, sometimes the government has a little bit too much faith in the integrity of the richies as a group (I have met some that are honest and generous)

    Still, if we are going to allow tax loopholes and they actually stimulate the economy, the tax percentages in the higher brackets would need to be increased to adjust for the loss to tax loopholes in order to help the debt problem.

  4. #24
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post

    So basically what the OP is whining about is that well-to-do people have more disposable income. The rest is just jealous banter. Using buzzwords like "crippling" just makes his point go from moot to laughable.
    The rich have more disposable income than the middle class, that is correct and is the focus of the thread. By George, I think you've got it! It is less of a burden for them to give up their temporary 3% tax cut on income over $250,000 than it would be for the middle class to have further cuts in SS and Medicare at a time when more and more of the middle class are being forced into poverty.

    Of course, revenues are just half of the equation, we will also need to end our optional ME wars and get our military spending back to defense only levels.
    Last edited by Catawba; 08-22-11 at 07:55 PM.
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    The fewer people who realize that loopholes exist to incentivize positive externalities, the worse position we will be in.

    God forbid liberals take an econ course here or there. Must be why they have time to sit around and bitch.
    People shouldn't come to debate forums if they feel their opinions are above debate.
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Well if you were to believe that everyone should pay the same % of income tax, then you would be supporting the wealthier paying in more taxes.

    Why do you feel the wealthy should pay the more taxes?

    Your likely response is that as long as everyone is paying the same percentage then it is fair. Which means you support the wealthy paying more total dollars in taxes and consider this to be fair.

    While you are headed in the right direction, I do not believe you have a complete understanding of what fair means.

    I will demonstrate what I am talking about as so many seem to be lost on the point.

    Lets look at a low income individual or family:

    Lets assume the lowest figures for living expenses are, on average, as follows:

    Rent = $600/mo, $7,200/yr
    Food = $200/mo, $2,400/yr

    Total of $9,600 per year (this is a very low estimate and only includes food and shelter)

    Lets assume that the lowest figures for income is as follows:

    $5/hr at 35 hours per week = $175/wk = 9,100 per year (this is also a low estimate and assumes that the individual or family has a job for a whole year)

    Now lets apply a tax rate of 15% (also a low percentage considering that everyone is at the same tax rate) and we have a net income of $7,735

    Now if we deduct expenses we have a total loss of: $1,865 per year (that's -24% of their net income)

    Now lets look at a wealthy individual or household:

    Again, lets assume the lowest figures for living expenses are, on average, as follows:

    Rent = $600/mo, $7,200/yr
    Food = $200/mo, $2,400/yr

    Total of $9,600 per year (this is a very low estimate and only includes food and shelter)

    Lets assume that the figures for income is as follows:

    $1,000,000 per year

    Now lets apply a tax rate of 15% (also a low percentage considering that everyone is at the same tax rate) and we have a net income of $850,000

    Now if we deduct expenses we have a total surplus of: $840,400 per year (99% of their net income)

    Here we see that relative to living expenses, this individual or household still maintains close to 100% of their net income (after income tax and living expenses), while the lowest income family or individual was actually not able to pay their living expense and went into a debt of 24% of their net income (after income tax and living expenses).

    So who is actually being hurt more here by a flat tax, the low income household or the high income household? Somehow I do not even see turnip juice being sucked out of the low income individual or family ... I dunno maybe I'm missing something ? ? ? How would everyone benefit from this scenario again? ? ? If the low income family is not able to live, there is no-one to do the richy's dirty work.

    such a flat tax would be clearly unfair; a fair tax would be better based on how one's income compares to the lowest average living expenses .. any other way is tyranny (I believe this is why 46% of our country does not pay income tax ... there's nothing to tax! Anyone can see this.) Explain to me how this is not fair again? It never ceases to amaze me when people miss this obvious point. It boggles my mind when people think that a flat tax is somehow fair ... wow .... really? ... wow ...
    Good grief. Ok average low income based on where?. San Fran or backwater Alabama? Way to much difference in cost of living througout the US. It boggles my mind that people expect something for nothing. I was mearly giving my opinion on why the middle class pays so much in taxes. One of the reasons is 46% pay no federal income tax. I never stated what the percentage should be on a flat tax. Heck I can be happy with the way things are. So many are saying the rich does not pay enough. I say they pay within the rules that exists. You care to give your thoughts on the orginal OP or just throw rocks.
    Last edited by mike2810; 08-22-11 at 08:24 PM.
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Good grief. Ok average low income based on where?. San Fran or backwater Alabama? Way to much difference in cost of living througout the US.
    As I said before, the principle is what matters .. I'm not trying to write a law here, just explain a principle

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Heck I can be happy with the way things are.
    Really? cuz I could have sworn you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    I personally believe everyone should pay the same %,
    (maybe I'm seeing things?)

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    So many are saying the rich does not pay enough. I say they pay within the rules that exists.
    I suppose that would be the legal thing for people to do

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    You care to give your thoughts on the orginal OP or just throw rocks.
    I think the middle class have carried our country on its back for too long, its time for the wealthy to start picking up some slack
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 08-22-11 at 08:38 PM.

  8. #28
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    It has been shown that the middle class pays the most crippling amount of income taxes and the middle class is relatively small. Crippling means that the ratio of living expenses to income tax makes it so that despite one’s increased income, the standard of living has not gone up much and there is still significant hardship. It is clear that most making above $250,000 are not crippled by income tax and instead cannot wrap their minds around the concept of progressive taxation (even though the wealthiest find loopholes out of such taxation). So, why is this the case? Why does the middle class shoulder the largest relative tax burden?
    You have shown nothing of the sort. This is another whine about the rich rant

    The top 5% pay more income taxes than the rest of the nation combined. If you count the Middle class as the 2nd, third and fouth quintile (ie 20%-80%) they don't pay anything near what the top 20% pay

    even if you call the middle class those between the 15 and 95 percentile, they still pay less of the FIT than the top 5%

    and they --be they 60% of the country or 80% of the country sure use A LOT MORE GOVERNMENT resources than the rich. and they tend to be the group that controls who becomes elected



  9. #29
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Then why would you use it as a way to support your argument?



    O.K., you are saying that using averages are a " b a d i d e a " and " s t u p i d ." .. does your argument have any more depth .. how is it a bad idea? how is it stupid? My point is, one neeeds to explain themselves in order to be seen as having a valid point .. words and phrases like "bad idea" and "stupid" are not a basis for an argument.



    It's called a principle .. a philosophy .. one need not define the exact specifics so long as the logic is sound .. you understood (or maybe you didn't, but I don't see how you couldn't) what that underlying principle was

    In my post I said exactly the following:



    I used the word phrase "b a s e d o n" - this does not mean geographical differences may not be considered .. however, you are talking chump change now and it would be more problematic to squeeze a few more cents from the poor ... in terms of percentages, the beauty of averages is that it makes a pretty good estimation of things ... but, I know there are other statistical measurements that could be used .. please, if you have another statistical reference you would like to use .. name it already! This is getting off topic as you are diverting away from the principle of the matter ... tax should be based on ratios of low end living expenses to income (this is the principle of the matter, we can argue about what measurements to use some other time or in some other post)



    Again, you clearly are not paying attention to the principle of the matter .. if you were you would be suggesting how we could use this principle and what measurements and factors should be given and taken into consideration by giving specific examples yourself .. draw out a scenario if you like using mathematics as I did, instead of criticizing, add, help, contribute .. you following me?
    It's ironic that you're calling me out for making a poor argument when all I did was point out the current system. Then again, if you fail to understand how idiotic your "point" was on the basis of the standards I laid out, then I really can't help you understand. Your little comparison is a fallacy, and it fails to make the point you think you're so clever in making.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Yet you still have done nothing but make accusations and buzzwords yourself, i.e. "liberal propaganda" - you have not provided any mathematical or situational proof for your position, your argument is a joke

    your only point is that you think people are "whining about is that well-to-do people have more disposable income" - which clearly shows your level of understanding

    we are talking about relative damage due to taxes - imposing tax debt on low income citizens only creates debt, not revenue - if you ask me .. if anything is propaganda, its your way of twisting the facts without backing theory/evidence

    I'm not sure it matters anyway because certain groups of people only care about being right and if they can throw a few catch phrases around that their buddies can cheer at ... they must be right .. right ?

    hey, don't hate the messenger
    You don't seem to get it. If taxes are so bad on the poor maybe they should not engage in activities that require more and more government action which in turn require OTHERS to pay (and be damaged) by more and more taxes.

    tell me why value received should play no role in the imposition of taxes?



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