View Poll Results: Why is the middle class the most crippled by income tax? Select all that apply

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  • Allowing many people to have a shot at being uber-wealthy is dangerous

    1 1.19%
  • Making the uber-wealthy share the load would be bad for the economy

    0 0%
  • The middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy do

    30 35.71%
  • The idea that the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax is a myth

    54 64.29%
  • A few wealthy, a few more middle class and many lower class citizens is best

    3 3.57%
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Thread: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

  1. #241
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what is the good of the commonwealth?
    I am using the following definition:

    Commonwealth defined:

    9. The general good

    With the added comment that I do not believe supporting the commonwealth means anarchy or unbridled humanitarian interest .. rather it means what is best for our country as a whole "the general good" - how would you define what is best for our country as a whole .. or have you even thought about it? In other words, what is best for our country .. absolute freedom for the individual, the good of the commonwealth
    or some mixture of both - if it's a mixture do you think the commonwealth or absolute individual freedom is slightly more important or are they both equally important?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I am not an anarchist and deny anarchy leads to more freedom for the individual. as a libertarian I support those necessary functions of government that actually promote freedom. However, I rejected the socialist faux libertarian position that those unable (or more often unwilling) to feed themselves cannot be free unless others are coerced into feeding them.
    Oh, OK, never mind it looks like you answered my question the answer was closest to option #1, i.e. freedom for the individual?

    Oh by the way, according to your position on the political compass (part of the research i did in one of my posts) you are not exactly a Libertarian (see below):

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post


    economic L/R 7.12
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -4.05

    hardly shocking
    This means economically your are 71.2% right wing (from the center, which would be a score of 0, i.e. a pure centrist, "pure" left being -10 and "pure" right being 10)
    And 70.2% libertarian (comparing from "pure" Authoritarian, which would be a score of 10, to "pure" Libertarian, which would be a score of -10)

    For giggles I went back and looked at mine to and here it is:

    [QUOTE=MusicAdventurer;1059733847]
    My score fell in the "Libertarian Left" quadrant ...

    My political compass score was:

    Economic Left/Right: -5.62
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.36

    Below is what my chart looked like:

    Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?-political-compass-graph-jpg

    So I am 56.2% left wing (I'm less left wing than you are right wing)
    I am 12% libertarian (I am less libertarian than you are)

    So I'm less like a true to a libertarian than you are and l ess like a left winger than you are like a right winger - Probably why other online surveys rate me as a centrist (although I am usually on the outskirts of being a centrist- being more libertarian and more left than most centrists)

    So we are definitely more similar when it comes to the libertarian (governmental social issues control aspect) than we are similar on economic issues (that difference is like night and day)

    Does this all sound right?

    I am just trying to understand how what you feel is ethically right in terms of economical issues and its no wonder we can never see eye to eye since we value different things economically speaking - it's like we are arguing from two different rule books, lol!

    So what's the middle ground?

    Probably me caring more about individual freedoms economically speaking and you caring more about the commonwealth economically speaking
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 08-26-11 at 12:36 AM.

  2. #242
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    I posted a response to that grid weeks ago I think I was around 5 oclock in the purple

    edit-didn't see my response-I was close. The formatting of your post was such I didn't see it.

    I would argue that a libertarian perspective is best for the common good
    Last edited by TurtleDude; 08-26-11 at 12:39 AM.



  3. #243
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I suspect most of those in the top one percent actually work far more than most of those in the bottom rungs
    Yes you whine, you suspect, you surmise, you pontificate, you flap your lips, and you number your opinions, anything but providing proof of your claim that the rich benefit less from government than the working class.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #244
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I posted a response to that grid weeks ago I think I was around 5 oclock in the purple

    edit-didn't see my response-I was close. The formatting of your post was such I didn't see it.

    I would argue that a libertarian perspective is best for the common good
    yeah .. something was up with it .. I couldn't see my graph either .. I can see it now though .. can you?

  5. #245
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    This means economically your are 71.2% right wing (from the center, which would be a score of 0, i.e. a pure centrist, "pure" left being -10 and "pure" right being 10)
    And 70.2% libertarian (comparing from "pure" Authoritarian, which would be a score of 10, to "pure" Libertarian, which would be a score of -10)
    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    So I am 56.2% left wing (I'm less left wing than you are right wing)
    I am 12% libertarian (I am less libertarian than you are)
    LOL! there's like 63.7 percentage points between us from left to right! .. while there is only 8.5 percentage points between us from libertarian to authoritarian

  6. #246
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yes you whine, you suspect, you surmise, you pontificate, you flap your lips, and you number your opinions, anything but providing proof of your claim that the rich benefit less from government than the working class.
    LOL! Our arch enemy TurtleDude!

  7. #247
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    It has been shown that the middle class pays the most crippling amount of income taxes and the middle class is relatively small. Crippling means that the ratio of living expenses to income tax makes it so that despite one’s increased income, the standard of living has not gone up much and there is still significant hardship. It is clear that most making above $250,000 are not crippled by income tax and instead cannot wrap their minds around the concept of progressive taxation (even though the wealthiest find loopholes out of such taxation). So, why is this the case? Why does the middle class shoulder the largest relative tax burden?


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/mon...cle1996735.ece
    Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  8. #248
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Here's some illuminating data:

    Median household income is $50k. Average persons per household is 2.6. Divide one by the other, and half the people in the country live on less than $19,300 a year each. (a rough estimate -- I recognize that the latter figure is an average of all households, so the two groups don't directly correlate)

    Now check out this

    A thrifty family of two spends $340 a month ($4,080 a year) on meals, so figure the typical household is dropping $5-10K a year on food alone. Then add up health insurance, transportation costs (car and gas), mortgage or rent, utilities, and probably some extra amenities. Hell, median rent is $755 a month. For the average renter, that's a third of his income.

    These people should shoulder America's debt?
    Last edited by GhostlyJoe; 08-26-11 at 03:40 AM.

  9. #249
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    Here's some illuminating data:

    Median household income is $50k. Average persons per household is 2.6. Divide one by the other, and half the people in the country live on less than $19,300 a year each. (a rough estimate -- I recognize that the latter figure is an average of all households, so the two groups don't directly correlate)

    Now check out this

    A thrifty family of two spends $340 a month ($4,080 a year) on meals, so figure the typical household is dropping $5-10K a year on food alone. Then add up health insurance, transportation costs (car and gas), mortgage or rent, utilities, and probably some extra amenities. Hell, median rent is $755 a month. For the average renter, that's a third of his income.

    These people should shoulder America's debt?
    That's what Obama is asking them to do, yes...and by "ask" I mean "force".

  10. #250
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post

    A thrifty family of two spends $340 a month ($4,080 a year) on meals, so figure the typical household is dropping $5-10K a year on food alone. Then add up health insurance, transportation costs (car and gas), mortgage or rent, utilities, and probably some extra amenities. Hell, median rent is $755 a month. For the average renter, that's a third of his income.
    If they're paying a mortgage then they're also paying maintenance upkeep, homeowner's insurance, garbage (unless you were thinking of that in utilities...usually people just think 'utilities' is electric and water)....etc.

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