View Poll Results: Why is the middle class the most crippled by income tax? Select all that apply

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  • The middle class do not have as much of an influence on politics as the wealthy do

    30 35.71%
  • The idea that the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax is a myth

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Thread: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

  1. #11
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Well if you were to believe that everyone should pay the same % of income tax, then you would be supporting the wealthier paying in more taxes.

    Why do you feel the wealthy should pay the more taxes?

    Your likely response is that as long as everyone is paying the same percentage then it is fair. Which means you support the wealthy paying more total dollars in taxes and consider this to be fair.

    While you are headed in the right direction, I do not believe you have a complete understanding of what fair means.

    I will demonstrate what I am talking about as so many seem to be lost on the point.

    Lets look at a low income individual or family:

    Lets assume the lowest figures for living expenses are, on average, as follows:

    Rent = $600/mo, $7,200/yr
    Food = $200/mo, $2,400/yr

    Total of $9,600 per year (this is a very low estimate and only includes food and shelter)

    Lets assume that the lowest figures for income is as follows:

    $5/hr at 35 hours per week = $175/wk = 9,100 per year (this is also a low estimate and assumes that the individual or family has a job for a whole year)

    Now lets apply a tax rate of 15% (also a low percentage considering that everyone is at the same tax rate) and we have a net income of $7,735

    Now if we deduct expenses we have a total loss of: $1,865 per year (that's -24% of their net income)

    Now lets look at a wealthy individual or household:

    Again, lets assume the lowest figures for living expenses are, on average, as follows:

    Rent = $600/mo, $7,200/yr
    Food = $200/mo, $2,400/yr

    Total of $9,600 per year (this is a very low estimate and only includes food and shelter)

    Lets assume that the figures for income is as follows:

    $1,000,000 per year

    Now lets apply a tax rate of 15% (also a low percentage considering that everyone is at the same tax rate) and we have a net income of $850,000

    Now if we deduct expenses we have a total surplus of: $840,400 per year (99% of their net income)

    Here we see that relative to living expenses, this individual or household still maintains close to 100% of their net income (after income tax and living expenses), while the lowest income family or individual was actually not able to pay their living expense and went into a debt of 24% of their net income (after income tax and living expenses).

    So who is actually being hurt more here by a flat tax, the low income household or the high income household? Somehow I do not even see turnip juice being sucked out of the low income individual or family ... I dunno maybe I'm missing something ? ? ? How would everyone benefit from this scenario again? ? ? If the low income family is not able to live, there is no-one to do the richy's dirty work.

    such a flat tax would be clearly unfair; a fair tax would be better based on how one's income compares to the lowest average living expenses .. any other way is tyranny (I believe this is why 46% of our country does not pay income tax ... there's nothing to tax! Anyone can see this.) Explain to me how this is not fair again? It never ceases to amaze me when people miss this obvious point. It boggles my mind when people think that a flat tax is somehow fair ... wow .... really? ... wow ...
    Your analogy sucks for a few reasons:

    1. Minimum wage is above $5.
    2. Anybody below 10,200 (last check) is below povery level and would qualify for government assistance in the form of discount housing, welfare, food stamps, and other programs (including utility subsidies and even free cell phones).
    3. Cost of living is significant to determining "wealth". A 500 sq. ft in Dallas can run you about $430 a month, but in New York City you're looking at about $1200. A man making $30k in Dallas would be much better off financially than a man making $30k in New York City.
    4. A person making $9100 a year would get almost all of their tax contribution back (SS and FICA excepted).
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  2. #12
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    The middle class is shouldering the largest amount of tax burden?
    Yes, and burden was defined in the question - "Crippling means that the ratio of living expenses to income tax"

    Reading is fundamental!
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Your analogy sucks for a few reasons:
    Classy way to start your argument .. 5 points added .. yeah!

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    1. Minimum wage is above $5.
    Ooops you're right, forgot it was changed add a few bucks:

    $7.25/hr - This still wouldn't change the point especially since I was being generous to your argument with living expenses (the picture would probably be a lot worse than I portrayed it with a flat tax).

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    2. Anybody below 10,200 (last check) is below povery level and would qualify for government assistance in the form of discount housing, welfare, food stamps, and other programs (including utility subsidies and even free cell phones).
    OK .. so let me see your logic here ... tax the poor and then give that money and more back to them via "discount housing, welfare, food stamps and other programs (including utility subsidies and even free cell phones)"

    What was the point of taking the money from them in the first place if it was just going to be given right back? It's that kind of logic that creates inefficient government policies that wastes everyone's time and money .. you've gotta do better than that my friend for arguments sake

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    3. Cost of living is significant to determining "wealth". A 500 sq. ft in Dallas can run you about $430 a month, but in New York City you're looking at about $1200. A man making $30k in Dallas would be much better off financially than a man making $30k in New York City.
    I don't think you understood, I believe I said average low living expenses .. a v e r a g e

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    4. A person making $9100 a year would get almost all of their tax contribution back (SS and FICA excepted).
    Right ... so again .. what was the purpose of taking it to begin with? Your not helping your case here

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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Here is the demonstration with the updated minimum wage (with realistic hour per week average) and more realistic average low cost expenses (hey you asked for it):

    Lets look at a low income individual or family:

    Lets assume the lowest figures for living expenses are, on average, as follows:

    Rent = $600/mo, $7,200/yr
    Food = $200/mo, $2,400/yr
    Medical = $10/mo, $100/yr
    Clothing = $10/mo, $100/yr
    Heat = $25/mo, $300/yr
    Transportation & Misc. = $14/wk, $728/yr

    Total of $10,828 per year (this is a very low estimate and only includes food and shelter)

    Lets assume that the lowest figures for income is as follows:

    $7.25/hr at 30 hours per week = $175/wk = $11,310 per year (this is also a low estimate and assumes that the individual or family has a job for a whole year)

    Now lets apply a tax rate of 15% (also a low percentage considering that everyone is at the same tax rate) and we have a net income of $9,613.5

    Now if we deduct expenses we have a total loss of: $1,214.5 per year (that's -13% of their net income)

    Now lets look at a wealthy individual or household:

    Again, lets assume the lowest figures for living expenses are, on average, as follows:

    Rent = $600/mo, $7,200/yr
    Food = $200/mo, $2,400/yr
    Medical = $10/mo, $100/yr
    Clothing = $10/mo, $100/yr
    Heat = $25/mo, $300/yr
    Transportation & Misc. = $14/wk, $728/yr

    Total of $10,828 per year (this is a very low estimate and only includes food and shelter)

    Lets assume that the figures for income is as follows:

    $1,000,000 per year

    Now lets apply a tax rate of 15% (also a low percentage considering that everyone is at the same tax rate) and we have a net income of $850,000

    Now if we deduct expenses we have a total surplus of: $839,172 per year (still 99% of their net income .. this hasn't changed pointless really to quibble over chump change, but oh well)

    Here we see that relative to living expenses, this individual or household still maintains close to 100% of their net income (after income tax and living expenses), while the lowest income family or individual was actually not able to pay their living expense and went into a debt of 13% of their net income (after income tax and living expenses).

    So who is actually being hurt more here by a flat tax, the low income household or the high income household? Somehow I do not even see turnip juice being sucked out of the low income individual or family ... I dunno maybe I'm missing something ? ? ? How would everyone benefit from this scenario again? ? ? If the low income family is not able to live, there is no-one to do the richy's dirty work.

    such a flat tax would be clearly unfair; a fair tax would be better based on how one's income compares to the lowest average living expenses .. any other way is tyranny (I believe this is why 46% of our country does not pay income tax ... there's nothing to tax! Anyone can see this.) Explain to me how this is not fair again? It never ceases to amaze me when people miss this obvious point. It boggles my mind when people think that a flat tax is somehow fair ... wow .... really? ... wow ...

  5. #15
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    Classy way to start your argument .. 5 points added .. yeah!



    Ooops you're right, forgot it was changed add a few bucks:

    $7.25/hr - This still wouldn't change the point especially since I was being generous to your argument with living expenses (the picture would probably be a lot worse than I portrayed it with a flat tax).



    OK .. so let me see your logic here ... tax the poor and then give that money and more back to them via "discount housing, welfare, food stamps and other programs (including utility subsidies and even free cell phones)"

    What was the point of taking the money from them in the first place if it was just going to be given right back? It's that kind of logic that creates inefficient government policies that wastes everyone's time and money .. you've gotta do better than that my friend for arguments sake



    I don't think you understood, I believe I said average low living expenses .. a v e r a g e



    Right ... so again .. what was the purpose of taking it to begin with? Your not helping your case here
    I didn't create the policy, I'm just stating what it is. If you want to ask why such a stupid system exists you should ask the legislators and presidents who have fostered it since the 70s.

    Creating any policy based on "averages" is a bad idea. Just like arbitrarily saying $250k is the cut off between "suffering middle class" and "rich" is a bad idea. Our country is too big and too diverse to make stupid decisions on "averages". $250K in New York state would have you living the same life as somebody making about $70k-80K in Texas. Yet under your broad reaching, poorly constructed philosophy on taxation, you would go ahead and tax the **** out of the guy in New York State simply because of an arbitrary quantifier. It makes no sense to exclude all factors for the sake of making an argument, no matter how right you want to be. At the end of the day, being "right" in your own mind might be the difference between royally screwing over people who would very neatly qualify as the victims in your little view of the world (if it weren't for that damned income divide, of course).
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  6. #16
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Want the middle class to pay less taxes? Spend less, not tax the wealthy even more. I find it disgusting that people want to look at someone else's wealth and say that they should pay more because they have it to pay despite our dangerous spending.
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Want the middle class to pay less taxes? Spend less, not tax the wealthy even more. I find it disgusting that people want to look at someone else's wealth and say that they should pay more because they have it to pay despite our dangerous spending.
    Our spending is a whole lot less dangerous and wasteful then it was when we started two optional unfunded wars and then at the same time cut our revenues by making "temporary" tax cuts. It took both wasteful spending and cutting revenues to create our debt and it will take the reverse to correct our debt problem. When in history have we ever cut taxes during a war, much less during two simultaneous wars?

    The failed trickle down economics has transferred more wealth to the top and is pushing more and more middle class into poverty. Eliminating the temporary cuts from our progressive tax system, will get us back on track for upper mobility again rather than the downward mobility we have seen from the last decade of trickle down economics.
    Last edited by Catawba; 08-22-11 at 06:18 PM.
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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I didn't create the policy, I'm just stating what it is. If you want to ask why such a stupid system exists you should ask the legislators and presidents who have fostered it since the 70s.
    Then why would you use it as a way to support your argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Creating any policy based on "averages" is a bad idea. Just like arbitrarily saying $250k is the cut off between "suffering middle class" and "rich" is a bad idea. Our country is too big and too diverse to make stupid decisions on "averages".
    O.K., you are saying that using averages are a " b a d i d e a " and " s t u p i d ." .. does your argument have any more depth .. how is it a bad idea? how is it stupid? My point is, one neeeds to explain themselves in order to be seen as having a valid point .. words and phrases like "bad idea" and "stupid" are not a basis for an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    $250K in New York state would have you living the same life as somebody making about $70k-80K in Texas. Yet under your broad reaching, poorly constructed philosophy on taxation, you would go ahead and tax the **** out of the guy in New York State simply because of an arbitrary quantifier.
    It's called a principle .. a philosophy .. one need not define the exact specifics so long as the logic is sound .. you understood (or maybe you didn't, but I don't see how you couldn't) what that underlying principle was

    In my post I said exactly the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    flat tax would be clearly unfair; a fair tax would be better based on how one's income compares to the lowest average living expenses
    I used the word phrase "b a s e d o n" - this does not mean geographical differences may not be considered .. however, you are talking chump change now and it would be more problematic to squeeze a few more cents from the poor ... in terms of percentages, the beauty of averages is that it makes a pretty good estimation of things ... but, I know there are other statistical measurements that could be used .. please, if you have another statistical reference you would like to use .. name it already! This is getting off topic as you are diverting away from the principle of the matter ... tax should be based on ratios of low end living expenses to income (this is the principle of the matter, we can argue about what measurements to use some other time or in some other post)

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    It makes no sense to exclude all factors for the sake of making an argument, no matter how right you want to be. At the end of the day, being "right" in your own mind might be the difference between royally screwing over people who would very neatly qualify as the victims in your little view of the world (if it weren't for that damned income divide, of course).
    Again, you clearly are not paying attention to the principle of the matter .. if you were you would be suggesting how we could use this principle and what measurements and factors should be given and taken into consideration by giving specific examples yourself .. draw out a scenario if you like using mathematics as I did, instead of criticizing, add, help, contribute .. you following me?

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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba
    Yes, and burden was defined in the question - "Crippling means that the ratio of living expenses to income tax"

    Reading is fundamental!
    So is spin, apparently.

    So basically what the OP is whining about is that well-to-do people have more disposable income. The rest is just jealous banter. Using buzzwords like "crippling" just makes his point go from moot to laughable.

    You can buy into the liberal propaganda if you want, which you will...other threads have proven this to be true. I'll ignore it.

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    Re: Why does the middle class pay the most crippling amount of income tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Want the middle class to pay less taxes? Spend less, not tax the wealthy even more. I find it disgusting that people want to look at someone else's wealth and say that they should pay more because they have it to pay despite our dangerous spending.
    Want the U.S. to get out of debt? Stop giving the wealthy unfair tax loopholes (tax cuts) .. they don't need them and it is unfair by principle. Spending is only dangerous if it is guided by the greedy hands of the wealthy and corporations.

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