View Poll Results: Should public school teachers be able to call creationism "superstitious nonsense"?

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  • Yes; they have freedom of speech and academic freedom

    33 56.90%
  • No; this amounts to the state picking sides on a religious matter

    14 24.14%
  • Other

    11 18.97%
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Thread: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

  1. #141
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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    One can also observe ships as they sail out to sea to conclude that the Earth is curved.

    Or observe shadows cast at different locations on the same day of the year. (Or you can just read about how shadows are cast in one place at a certain time on a certain day and then observe observe how shadows are cast at a different location at that time and on that day, sort of like how Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the earth).

    IOW, there are actually a few visual cues to the Earth roundness that don't involve higher elevations, but they aren't really going to be that obvious to most people.

    Also, very few knowledgeable people really believed the Earth is flat for a very long time now.
    I'm not discounting what you say, not at all. I'm saying that for us modern-folk, who've developed sophisticated analytic ways of viewing the world, testing our observations against models we hold, this is all natural. Look at my comment and you'll find that I stated the following: "even then one has to understand what one is seeing in order to place the visual clues into context" by which I meant most ordinary citizens of the long ago past were not going to be sophisticated enough to either do this themselves or to believe the authority of the smarter people around them when their pronouncements contradicted what everyone saw with their own eyes.

    Don't we both agree that this viewpoint didn't originate from a religious dictate?

  2. #142
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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Yes. Yes it is a bad example in the sense that the one has nothing to do with the other. Diversity is not a "myth." It's an ideal. It is sometimes pushed in idiotic ways, but it is not a "myth."
    It's not an ideal, it's actually pushed as "diversity is our strength."

  3. #143
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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    One thing is constant in this thread is the recognition that creationism is religion...not science
    Ignorance is the refuge of faith
    It's become very apparent that there is nothing respectable about faith
    "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people"

  4. #144
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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    I'm not discounting what you say, not at all. I'm saying that for us modern-folk, who've developed sophisticated analytic ways of viewing the world, testing our observations against models we hold, this is all natural. Look at my comment and you'll find that I stated the following: "even then one has to understand what one is seeing in order to place the visual clues into context" by which I meant most ordinary citizens of the long ago past were not going to be sophisticated enough to either do this themselves or to believe the authority of the smarter people around them when their pronouncements contradicted what everyone saw with their own eyes.

    Don't we both agree that this viewpoint didn't originate from a religious dictate?
    You're right. We agree that the original idea that the Earth was flat was not some religious dictate. Much like the original view that the Sun traveled around the Earth was not a religious dictate.

    Sometimes I fall prey to getting sucked in to the details of a side-issue and miss the main point going on. My apologies for that, as this happened here.

    That being said, though, I think that someone could use religion as their basis for continuing to believe the world is flat despite encountering evidence to the contrary. I think that it's possible that someone is doing so today, but I have no idea why they would be doing it.

  5. #145
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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That being said, though, I think that someone could use religion as their basis for continuing to believe the world is flat despite encountering evidence to the contrary. I think that it's possible that someone is doing so today, but I have no idea why they would be doing it.
    One could use any philosophy for believing an irrational idea. The human mind knows few limits when it comes to rationalizing conspiracies. Religion is simply one of many philosophies which can be used as such a foundation. We shouldn't be pinning craziness solely onto religion.

  6. #146
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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    It's not an ideal, it's actually pushed as "diversity is our strength."
    How is that not an ideal? To be clear, I'm not at all suggesting that that's not a stupid motto.

    I'm also somewhat curious as to where that motto comes from (i.e. what school district, and why they came up with it).

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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    How is that not an ideal? To be clear, I'm not at all suggesting that that's not a stupid motto.
    Lecturing on "we should strive to find the good in diversity and try to leverage our differences into strength" would be espousing an ideal but stating "diversity is our strength" as though it is undisputed fact, as though it is knowledge that is as sound as the law of gravity is an altogether different type of animal. There is a world of social science literature, not to mention a historical accounts from all over the world, which directly contradict the myth that "diversity is our strength."

    Schools have entire bureaucracies which push this myth. Imagine having an entire school bureaucracy dedicated to pushing religious creationism.

    I'm also somewhat curious as to where that motto comes from (i.e. what school district, and why they came up with it).
    In some deep dungeon lab in the feverish leftist swamps. I'm too scared to approach their borders to find the source.

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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    One could use any philosophy for believing an irrational idea. The human mind knows few limits when it comes to rationalizing conspiracies. Religion is simply one of many philosophies which can be used as such a foundation. We shouldn't be pinning craziness solely onto religion.
    True, it should certainly not be pinned on religion alone, nor should any philosophy be considered immune to it, but I think that in this instance, the particular people who currently believe that the Earth is flat are using religion to justify this particular irrational idea, and that this was why it was mentioned earlier. At least that is how I read it.

    Now, one might argue that mentioning that this particular belief had a religious basis for the particular people currently promoting it is irrelevant, but I would have to disagree because some people are of the belief that if a belief has a religious basis for anyone people, it should not be described as an irrational belief in the right context in school. It actually has merit to mention whether or not there are people who hold this belief (or rationalize this belief) due to their particular views about their religion.

    To explain, it is possible for someone to have a creation theory that is not necessarily religious in nature. One could believe that inter-dimensional aliens created our universe as a giant computer that has the goal of calculating a whole bunch of crap in order to reach the answer of 42. This would be a creationism that is not religiously based.

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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Lecturing on "we should strive to find the good in diversity and try to leverage our differences into strength" would be espousing an ideal but stating "diversity is our strength" as though it is undisputed fact, as though it is knowledge that is as sound as the law of gravity is an altogether different type of animal. There is a world of social science literature, not to mention a historical accounts from all over the world, which directly contradict the myth that "diversity is our strength."
    .
    Diversity is one of the main things people associate with the United States. And for a country that's a little over 200 years old, we've done pretty well with it. So I think it's pretty accurate to say that diversity is an American strength. I guess you could argue it's a weakness if you'd prefer the US be homogeneous - but then not only would you have to kick out all the blacks, Hispanics, Asians and so on, you'd also have to kick out the Irish and Italians...
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 08-22-11 at 12:43 AM.

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    Re: Judges rule for teacher who called creationism "superstitious nonsense"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    True, it should certainly not be pinned on religion alone, nor should any philosophy be considered immune to it, but I think that in this instance, the particular people who currently believe that the Earth is flat are using religion to justify this particular irrational idea, and that this was why it was mentioned earlier. At least that is how I read it.

    Now, one might argue that mentioning that this particular belief had a religious basis for the particular people currently promoting it is irrelevant, but I would have to disagree because some people are of the belief that if a belief has a religious basis for anyone people, it should not be described as an irrational belief in the right context in school. It actually has merit to mention whether or not there are people who hold this belief (or rationalize this belief) due to their particular views about their religion.

    To explain, it is possible for someone to have a creation theory that is not necessarily religious in nature. One could believe that inter-dimensional aliens created our universe as a giant computer that has the goal of calculating a whole bunch of crap in order to reach the answer of 42. This would be a creationism that is not religiously based.
    The above is some of the most ungainly writing I have ever engaged in in my life. My apologies. This is a sign that it is time for me to go to bed.

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