View Poll Results: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

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    11 42.31%
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Thread: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

  1. #61
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    The question was not pertaining to what debaters thought the original intent of the writers of the constitution, amendments, bill of rights etc. (founding documents) was. Instead, it was questioning the degree to which each debater personally believes that the constitution is or is not sacrosanct and a valid source to base one's ethical argument on. The way your post reads, you are stating what you thought the intent of our founding fathers was, not what you actually believe should be true.
    Should be true? Whew! Truth is truth. It is true that the Constitution was not meant to be a document that could not be criticized. So, from that standpoint, the truth is that the Constitution is not sacrosanct. There is a way to change the Constitution and that way could be changed with an amendment, so, in truth, that part is not sacrosanct, but, as long as it is the method to change the Constitution, it is the only constitutional method for altering the Constitution. What is sacrosanct is that the Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land and that unless it is amended, it remains the supreme law of the land. What is also sacrosanct, unless amended to read differently, is that the Constitution provides for a limited Federal Government.

    No offense, but I am not going to dance on the head of a pin over this subject. The meaning of the Constitution is clear to anyone who has basic knowledge of our Founding. This rest is mere rhetoric.

  2. #62
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    If by "appropriate" you mean "constitutional", I agree with the above and below items. However, if you are somehow proposing that some guidlines in the founding documents (including those that pertain to ways of making changes to said documents) are somehow absolute truths and/or sacrosanct and thus should not be subject to change .. we disagree.



    When I initially read your following statement:



    I may have erroneously misunderstood your position as I simply skimmed that particular post ... indeed the rest of that post seemed to be in disagreement with my position (see below):



    By this do you mean that changing the manner in which the founding documents are amended is immoral? If so then yes, we disagree. I believe all things made from humans are imperfect and thus should be subject to criticism and reform if need be.
    Could you just answer true or false to the five questions?

  3. #63
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Should be true? Whew! Truth is truth. It is true that the Constitution was not meant to be a document that could not be criticized. So, from that standpoint, the truth is that the Constitution is not sacrosanct. There is a way to change the Constitution and that way could be changed with an amendment, so, in truth, that part is not sacrosanct, but, as long as it is the method to change the Constitution, it is the only constitutional method for altering the Constitution. What is sacrosanct is that the Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land and that unless it is amended, it remains the supreme law of the land. What is also sacrosanct, unless amended to read differently, is that the Constitution provides for a limited Federal Government.

    No offense, but I am not going to dance on the head of a pin over this subject. The meaning of the Constitution is clear to anyone who has basic knowledge of our Founding. This rest is mere rhetoric.
    So you do believe that, by definition, our founding documents should be edited when necessary.

    I still am not clear as to a whether or not you believe said documents are valid sources to base one's ethical argument on ... are they?

  4. #64
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Could you just answer true or false to the five questions?
    This is not necessary as the scope of this debate is regarding specific principles, i.e. the degree to which each debater personally believes that the constitution is or is not sacrosanct and is or is not a valid source to base one's ethical argument on; its scope was not intended to be on debating specific content of our founding documents (although I would love to go over the specifics of our founding documents with at at some later time). Its simple, either you believe our founding documents are sacrosanct and are a valid source on which to base one's ethical argument, or not.
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 08-20-11 at 04:33 PM.

  5. #65
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    So you do believe that, by definition, our founding documents should be edited when necessary.

    I still am not clear as to a whether or not you believe said documents are valid sources to base one's ethical argument on ... are they?
    I have provided my answer on that. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and holds sway over all other law. The Constitution can be changed, but can only be changed by amendment. That's my answer.

  6. #66
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    This is not necessary as the scope of this debate is regarding specific principles, i.e. the degree to which each debater personally believes that the constitution is or is not sacrosanct and is or is not a valid source to base one's ethical argument on; its scope was not intended to be on debating specific content of our founding documents (although I would love to go over the specifics of our founding documents with at at some later time). Its simple, either you believe our founding documents are sacrosanct and are a valid source on which to base one's ethical argument, or not.
    Well, you said something about agreement so I thought it would be interesting to see if that actually existed. I'm guessing it doesn't. Carry on!

  7. #67
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    I have provided my answer on that. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and holds sway over all other law. The Constitution can be changed, but can only be changed by amendment. That's my answer.
    So ... are the following answers correct for you? (just want to make sure I am hearing you properly):

    Do you believe our founding documents are sacrosanct? Your answer is: Yes

    Do you believe our founding documents are valid sources on which to base one's ethical argument? Your answer is: Yes

    Do I have that right?

    If so we are in disagreement.

  8. #68
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    So ... are the following answers correct for you? (just want to make sure I am hearing you properly):

    Do you believe our founding documents are sacrosanct? Your answer is: Yes

    Do you believe our founding documents are valid sources on which to base one's ethical argument? Your answer is: Yes

    Do I have that right?

    If so we are in disagreement.
    I am not going to answer this for a third time and I will not dance on the head of a pin. Have a nice day!

  9. #69
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    I think people have been using the term "rights" liberally .. I have come to the conclusion that when most people say rights they are referring to ethical truths. Ask any anthropologist, psychologist etc. and they will tell you that ethical truths can vary from person to person, state to state, country to country etc. Therefore they are subjective and need no law or majority to exist. I agree that rights exist because of the existence of humans, i.e. they can be conceived by the individual and society.
    "Ethical truths" are no different from opinions. Everyone has them, most of them are stupid. While people are certainly welcome to have whatever opinions they want, that doesn't give their opinions any weight. The child molester can think their "ethical truth" gives them the right to molest children. Society says otherwise.

    Ethical beliefs or truths (ethics are subjective, not objective) exist regardless of whether or not a majority agrees with them; the majority agreeing on a particular ethic over another simply means that is more popular than another, not that it is more "right" that another ethic.
    Since they're just opinions, sure they exist. Doesn't make them necessarily worthwhile though.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #70
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    Re: Are the U.S. constitution and its amendments sacrosanct? Yes or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    "Ethical truths" are no different from opinions.
    Ah .. bow you are catching on .. however, most people would consider their ethical truths to be at least strong opinions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Everyone has them, most of them are stupid.
    While stupid may be an oversimplified argument with little substance .. it is still your opinion and thus you have an ethical truth/value/worldview that says "most peoples opinions are stupid"

    However, I am not sure what your point was beyond that

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    While people are certainly welcome to have whatever opinions they want, that doesn't give their opinions any weight.
    Unless of course we are talking about opinions held in a democracy where the majority could have "stupid" opinion's and thus have an effect on laws/regulation/policies/etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    The child molester can think their "ethical truth" gives them the right to molest children. Society says otherwise.
    You couldn't be more correct my friend... currently society says otherwise (and according to bio-psychological theories it is unlikely that society would ever think that molesting children is "O.K.")

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Since they're just opinions, sure they exist. Doesn't make them necessarily worthwhile though.
    Ah .. we have a meeting of the minds .. YAY!
    Last edited by MusicAdventurer; 08-20-11 at 10:24 PM.

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